Recommending NOT using non-stainless 5 piece for Bolting

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:AND SOMEONE CHIMED IN WITH MORE BULLSHIT... Boys, isnt the triplex technically a stud... its threaded on the outside which I thought was the definition of the stud. This has been amusing.

The triplex is a sleeve bolt not a stud.

John, I'm not claiming any moral high ground. I'm just pointing out the obvious. I've seen areas that have been around for many decades with 3 generations of bolts that couldn't be replaced in the same hole, and it's just downright ugly. Chopped bolts sticking out, rusting, etc.

Use whatever bolt type you want, just be aware that if you use stud bolts they can not be removed. Someone was suggesting Hilti Coil bolts on a thread over on Supertopo - never tried them, but they look cool and are removable and reusable.

5-piece bolts aren't even that great for reusing the hole, it takes a lot of work (or not much work with a 36V drill), Triplex, these Coil bolts, even Bachar's favorite taper bolts are all much easier to reuse the hole.

A lot of people use stud bolts. I used to use them on FAs all the time. The ASCA used to use them regularly. But the fact remains that they can't be removed, and in a lot of places those bolts will get ugly in the future.

Greg,
Okay, I can appreciate your point of view.

I am still left trying to figure out how a damn triplex can be removeable...

Okay, I'll be able to sleep tonight:

"A very unique feature of this bolt is that it’s also designed to be easily removable for inspection and/or replacement. The way this is accomplished is that the recommended 12mm bits drill a hole slightly larger than the diameter of the bolt. The bolt tightens up just fine, but if you need to remove it, you loosen the nut, and pry the sleeve off. Presto, out comes the bolt! I was skeptical at first, how well could this really work? But my first try at removing one went smooth and it really does work. The only caveat with this bolt is that because the hole is slightly larger than the bolt, you need to be certain you tighten it properly the first time."

of course, if we just used Petzl glue-ins we would never need to have this conversation.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:of course, if we just used Petzl glue-ins we would never need to have this conversation.

Never???
Someday they will rust out. Can you ever remove them?
Glueins are best used on sea side clifs with TI bolts like in Tiland.

I would someday like to use only triplex bolts.

Kevin Stricker wrote: I do not see how this is possible. I have placed over 200 of the triplex bolts and have not had a single spinner. This sounds more like operator error to me. If you do decide to go with the FIXE wedge bolts I would highly recommend only using the 3 1/2" variety as the shorter ones are notorious for being spinners. Having 3 spinners out of a hundred 2 1/4" FIXE wedge bolts I will never use these bolts again.

People are talking about spinners with every type of bolt here.
You are not cleaning out the hole properly. A blow tube is not enough. Use test tube brushes and get all the dust out.
You will never have another spinner, Also dont hit the bolt and hanger flush to the rock,leave 1/8'" and then tighten it down.
I see alot of people run the nut to the top of the bolt and beat on the nut. DO NOT DO THIS!!! Never hit the nut on a stud or triplex.
Be gentle do not beat the shit out of it.

I place bolts everday on the job and people constantly fuck it up.
It is easy to place a bolt but it is easier to jack it up.

Always drill the hole deeper than the bolt.

Spinners are always operator error.
If you place ten good bolts and then have a spinner then YOU screwed up.

Spinners can be fixed.
But you cant FIXE stupid.

I always hear a lot of talk about replacing bolts which is good, but very little on appropriate and effective patching of holes. I personally think not patching any adjacent holes when rebolting is basically botching the job and only a marginal step up from bad bolting in general.

Now admittedly you folks in the desert deal with things which are a bit more difficult given there can be an erosion impedance between stone and patching materials which can result in less than desirable results over time. But hey, from my perspective that's your lot in life, and the cards you got dealt living where you do, so come up with a workable solution to the problem.

Generating less holes through reuse is always optimal, but not always possible. As Bill noted (and he co-owns a hi-tech fastner company), up here in the NW we've not had good luck removing corroded, non-stainless five piece bolts. However, drilling the remains of them out is not something I've personally tried and maybe it's a case of taking my own advice and figuring something out.

Past a certain point I started just breaking and patching which, when done well in our basalt, results in an invisible patch. But getting the patching to that point did take a lot of practice to develop and my first attempts need to be revisited this coming year to clean them up.

My point, though, is that patching well and invisibly is a necessary craft in its own right for anyone doing rebolting and I think the ASCA ought to consider advocating an emphasizing patching as well. It might also be helpful too, if you guys started collecting recommedations for patching materials, tools, and techniques [for different rock types]. I'd be willing to do a write up and a video of what I do this summer when I'm back at it.

you can get spinners from Triplex if you use a 1/2" drill bit. definately use a 12mm like mentioned above. 12mm is .472 inches. That little bit will make the difference. check your bits.

as for the 3/8" (nom) FIXE wedge bolts, best bit to use is 10mm (.394 in), because the 3/8" (.375 in) bit is too tight.

OK Mike... whatever you say. You clearly know this subject better than the rest of us novices.

mikewhite wrote:There is a big difference between 99 cent bolts and a $25.00 SS rawl.

I found 'em a bit cheaper than that.

fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/…

I bought from these guys last summer. Placed a few of the 1/2" stainless Powerbolts (Devil's Castle). I noticed my manhood grow in both girth and length. Still thinkin' I need a new harness.

Anyhoo, they're spendier than studs, to be sure. But, the 1/2 X 2.75" ones are 6.18 each, and the 1/2 X 4.75" are 8.76 each from the place referenced above. And, when I ordered, they tossed in 10 bucks of gas (gas card). Fast, too.

Note that their price for the stainless 3/8 X 2.25" are only 3.60 per. If you have a cheaper source, post up!

I've seen the Triplex loosen. Probably has to do with surface prep near the hole. If the sleeve/hanger isn't seated snug and/or a crystal breaks under the rim of the sleeve/hanger, then the whole shootin' match will get loose. I think folks also got away from using the 12mm hangers and instead us 10mm hangers to put the sleeve below the bolt hanger, and, not through it. Seemed to help(?).

I'm also still a fan of the Fixe, Raumer and Hilti KBIII studs. I overdrill the hole so they can be punched in and patched. Easy to place one handed and when your fiddlin' around with them, they have way fewer moving parts than a five piece. Drop the cone on a five piece and you're done. Easy to get another nut for a stud.

Anyhoo, cheers.

-Brian in SLC

Brian,
Using a 12mm hanger on the Triplex is a bad idea. The hanger needs to be between the nut and the sleeve for them to work. Otherwise they will not tighten properly.(edit: sorry Brian, I thought you were endorsing using 12mm hangers)

Kevin Stricker wrote:Brian, Using a 12mm hanger on the Triplex is a bad idea. The hanger needs to be between the nut and the sleeve for them to work. Otherwise they will not tighten properly.

Uhh, I think that's what I said above.

Originally, when they were introduced, Fixe recommended a 12mm hanger and putting the sleeve through it, if I recall correctly.

I think I still have some sold in "kits" with a hanger and bolt and the hanger is 12mm.

Anyhoo, cheers,

-Brian in SLC

Thanks for the clarification Greg. I wasn't aware that you were only discussing using 5 piece non-stainless at Red Rocks (or that kind of environment).

I didn't want this to turn into a thread of if a route should have pro replaced or not, or a referendum on the ASCA. I have great respect for the work and effort Greg and those folks put into this, and they approach it with some sensitivity too. I would vote that not all routes need "safe" bolts replacing the old stuff IF one is defining "safe" as bigger or newer. The West Face of Monkey Face for instance, was a great route with 1/4"ers, some of which you had to push back in with your hand before weighting: until someone zippered and ripped out 8 bolts in a row on a underwear filling but otherwise clean fall anyway:-) The issue of leaving in such 1/4"ers should be a local issue. I was just trying to address what is working when old bolts do get replaced.

Some people in this area are still unfortunately using steel wedge anchors, which are a total waste of time and rust fairly fast around here, leaving someone else to deal with it within 10-15 years. Joseph can describe the amount of work involved in removing that mank, as he replaced all the anchors and bolts at Beacon rock with new stuff. Needless to say, it was a lot of work.

My original point was to address Gregs post regarding replacing old F*ed up mank with non-stainless 5 piece. For around here we've learned that it's a bad idea, as I explained above so won't repeat. I'd like to see this discussion expand to what people are using in their areas. I suspect that glued in stainless steel would be the best in most areas, especially in soft rock areas and or wet areas like the Red River Gorge. I don't know if anyone can gage the life of Stainless Wedge anchors, but that is what is being utilized around here. I suppose that the reality is that it is still a balance of useful life VS cost. Stainless wedge anchors are very cost effective, and the life should outlive me and possibly my kids.

Hey Bill, let me clarify further - I never meant to suggest replacing old bolts with non-stainless bolts. The ASCA uses more than 99% stainless bolts, and we always have - the only exception is Titanium for seaside, and 1/2 x 3.75" 5-pieces (and a handful of other long 1/2" bolts used by Sam in Moab), used in soft/medium desert sandstone, and that's only because they don't make stainless in that length.

This is all pretty funny since I'm often accused by friends of pushing stainless on everyone when most people can't (or - in my opinion - won't) afford it...

To reiterate what Darren said, it is imperative to use the bits recommended by Fixe when placing Fixe bolts. Using a 3/8" or 1/2" bit instead of the 10mm and 12mm bits recommended is a possible and likely cause of spinning hangers when using Fixe bolts. We almost exclusively place Fixe wedge and Fixe Triplex bolts here and I have to embarrassingly admit of being guilty in thinking I could use a 3/8 or 1/2 bit with them. With the 10mm wedge bolts you can usually get away with a 3/8 bit if you're careful by "boring" out the hole a little extra but it's difficult to gauge, particularly in different rock types. Typically the nut won't tighten all the way and/or the bolt has a hard time going in all the way and can spin as a result when you try to tighten it. And, I've had 10mm bits that have caused similar problems when the bits became dull and seemed to not drill quite as wide of a hole as when new. With the Fixe Triplex, a 1/2" bit is way too big and again, embarrassingly, one day I forgot my 12 mm bit but thought I could get by with a 1/2" bit. Big mistake. The bolt will tighten but it's a bad bolt that needs to be replaced.

On another note, the Triplex are fairly easily removed, often with just a light tapping of the bolt to release the wedge from the sleeve. We've enjoyed their use in developing areas where we're not always quite sure if the bolt or anchor is in the best spot, particularly when doing stuff on lead. It gives you a reasonable option to move bolts if you realized your initial placement was off.

Fixe now claims that their "new" wedge bolts are now in fact 3/8 and not the 10mm version like they were in the past. I'm confused. In the past, they sold 10 mm wedge bolts; however, they marketed them as 3/8. Are the new wedge bolts from Fixe 3/8 or 10mm???

Dan Levison wrote:Fixe now claims that their "new" wedge bolts are now in fact 3/8 and not the 10mm version like they were in the past. I'm confused. In the past, they sold 10 mm wedge bolts; however, they marketed them as 3/8. Are the new wedge bolts from Fixe 3/8 or 10mm???

That's interesting. I just saw that on their site. Perhaps they found it difficult to sell 10mm bolts because you can't usually buy a 10mm bit at a place like Lowe's. Who knows? Perhaps I'll email them and see if I can find anything out.

The way I understand it, the new ones are 3/8. On the website they say you need a 3/8 bit, it used to say 10mm. The old ones were definitely 10mm, as Mike mentioned we had issues when not using 10mm bits. If you tried to pound them into a 3/8 hole, the stud would start to mushroom and you couldn't tighten the threads. I think most folks just figured 10mm was close enough to 3/8, but it made a pretty big difference, in hard rock at least.

thats exactly the problem. at FIXE, there would/could be a mix of sizes, a nominal 3/8 compared to a nominal 10mm (similarly with the 12mm and 1/2 in). i think they should be marked. over the years i have seen them change their recommendation for bit size. maybe they were selling metric in spain, and english here?!

at any rate, it is hard to tell. so i have all four bit sizes to choose from. its also worth mentioning that a worn-down 10mm drill bit is about the size of a 3/8. if you do not change your bits often or are drilling in different rock hardnesses, things may get wacky and rules-of-thumbs go out the window.