Is rescue a right or a privilege?

Mark Nelson wrote: ..but the system for rescue without charge needs to work, even for the idiots, so that it is guaranteed to work for the ones that desperately need aid.

I agree, but I think calling those that make poor decisions "idiots" a bit harsh.

I figure I'm probably the biggest one; so I use myself as the lowest common denominator.

Greg wrote: Always really important to remember that rescuers are by and large incredibly giving people who put themselves into uncomfortable, risky, life-threatening situations in order to help those who need it. I'd just like to see their sacrifice given for a good reason.

I hear ya Greg.
I offered a "free" self-rescue course (as a community service,not a shameless plug) earlier on this thread and have little to no interest...go figure?

JF

j fassett wrote: I offered a "free" self-rescue course (as a community service,not a shameless plug) earlier on this thread and have little to no interest...go figure? JF

seriously? you're still going to give it right? maybe you should post it on the AZ & NM forum as its own thread. i don't want to miss an opportunity to learn from the masters, especially if it's for free. ;)

This is a very interesting thread to me. Personally, as a SAR volunteer myself, I'd like to make a couple of points:

1: To someone with years of backcountry experience (I'm no mountain hardman, but I've been around a little), a great majority of rescues we are called out on could be viewed as unnecessary, or at least a result of gross human error. You have no idea how many rescues we get called out for a year for people "lost" in the Sandia mountains (anyone who's been there knows you pretty much just go downhill and you'll hit road or town eventually), and people who head out totally unprepared for weather or minor injury.

2: We, as rescuers, never pass judgement on the "worthiness" of the rescue. We understand when we volunteer for SAR that we risk our safety every time we go into the field, and we accept that we may not always personally find that risk justified by the situation. However, it is not our place to judge such things. If someone feels the situation is dire enough to call for rescue, they deserve every resource available to help them. Whether or not I (or anyone else) feels that "I wouldn't ever be stupid enough to be caught in a situation like that" is totally immaterial. Our priority is to ensure the safe return of people to their families. There is plenty of time after the fact to play "the blame game", but not while someone is in trouble (real or perceived) in the backcountry.

3: Everyone makes mistakes, and nobody deserves to die because they got in over their heads (even if it was negligence that got them there).

"We Go So That Others May Live"

Right on James! Right on!

James, thank you for your time, efforts and positive attitude.

Leave it up to us to pass judgement! You just keep saving our asses!

~Susan

JF

Kirra and Russ,

You two need to put this nonsense to rest. It's one thing in pointless threads that are meant for entertainment, but it is just irritating when we are trying to discuss serious issues.

You both are middle-aged adults, but you are acting like adolescent brats. If you can't manage to let this crap go, then attack each other via Email.

A little goes a long way.

~~~~~~~thread drift~~~~~~~~~pretty sure I've got Jeff's approval~~~~~

Ken, I agree a little would go a long way. Maybe next time?

Kirra as per usual came right out of the chute slinging insults. Then in classic Kirra style started playing the picked on innocent. If she continues to call people names and act poorly she will get called on it. Plain and simple. She quotes rule #1 yet she is the #1 offender of not following the rule.

She calls people names, insults them and then edits her posts or often deletes them later. I'm not sure if it's embarrassment or just to get attention by looking like she's the injured party. Either way, she's a spin doctor.

I've done my best to curb my fingers through this thread and keep it on topic and away from the KB™ Drama-fest but your last suggestion brought me into the fire.

Taking any communication with Kirra offline is not recommended. She is even LESS accountable there then online. In an unprompted email that she sent me directly she actually used the parallel that I (a vacation rental home owner) was the same as, and I quote, "a dog beater" & "child molester". Yes folks, that's a true story.

She spews venom online and off and is best to be avoided. It is she that should give it a rest! And while she's at it... learn to spell. It's "you're", or "you are" not "your" it's "lose" not "loose".

So, it's been established she's nasty and ignorant and if she were stranded up on a wall with all her NooB BS in AZ, I suspect she'd be having a long and cold night.

~Susan

wow-

lots of great stuff on this thread since i read it last! i have a couple of broad thoughts:

1) thanks james for your insights. well-said.

2) the main issue i see is that inexperienced folks get into trouble because they don't know what they are getting into. what seasoned climbers can do about this is to offer some guidance and to link them up with people with whom they can get training.

along that line, if you know a climber that could benefit from the free self-rescue clinic, let them know about it. jeff is a fantastic resource.

3) it seems that the rescue that precipitated this thread could have been handled by the climbers in the parking area if the couple in trouble had yelled for help. lots of seasoned folks were there, and it sounds like many of them would have been willing to hike to the top and lower a rope to them.

and finally, which may be a point of contention:
4) if you find yourself watching an epic start to unfold in another party, how about sticking around at the base of the cliff for a bit? i suspect a few seasoned folks do this from time to time, and i wonder if this might help decrease the number of full-on rescues that need to happen. a bit of beta yelled to a party that's having some trouble might be enough to get them out of it without a rescue.

-geir

Hank Caylor wrote: I hope this doesn't jump off the climbing topic too much, ... I think that more jumpers have what is called "emergency Insurance" than climbers. .... It will not cover the rescue, but if you can rescue yourself at least to the ground they will pick you up one way or the other(helicopter or ambulance) for $20 bux a month. I guess some could argue the "hey I have insurance, so a rescue is a right" not a privilege arguement. ...

Here also is point worth discussing (sorry Hank I butchered your post -- just to explain a generalized issue): Having insurance & thinking rescue.

For the most part, I feel this is an after-the-fact situation. The responders nor the person needing aid should consider: is there insurance involved? when the call is made.

SAR agencies don't seek reimbursement from insurance companies, so the fact that Hank, in this example, doesn't have insurance for the rescue -- it's not an issue anyway. Now, the medical/medical transport is -- which should be after the SAR team does their technical evac work.

So, in this example, a person need not think -- holy crap I'm on the wall without insurance coverage with a possible c-spine/spine/head injury; we can't help ourselves, I'm totally screwed, & they won't get me. Yes, they will.

It's just that IF there is a situation that a vertical buddy evac can be dealt with by the climbers, then learn & practice how to do it -- there is a significant time savings here by getting off the vertical wall and into the hands of SAR for the scree carry/heli loading that does help.

Note: The buddy evac is incredibly subjective to medical/trauma condition & the training/experience of the people doing it - Philo participated in one with his friend, but they had totally experienced medical on the wall at the time as well as technical expertise also for support.

first off, holy shit susan. second,

susan peplow wrote:It's "you're", or "you are" not "your" it's "lose" not "loose".

if i could have one thing in life and one thing only it might be to have every english-speaking person worldwide understand the difference between these words. i would also throw in "there", "their", and "they're", along with "then" and "than", among others.

finally i'd like to make a prediction about the direction this thread will take. i predict kirra will read susan's post and lash back at her (which unfortunately is what i would probably do too after reading a post like that about myself) which will undoubtedly start another round of flames.

let it be noted that jeff is a big man for throwing away his ego and trying to stop this thing before it got out of hand. unfortunately he was a bit too late.

let it also be noted that since i'm not a direct player in this flame war it's real easy for me to judge you all from the sidelines, so i'm going to break out the popcorn and judge away. maybe i'll even get a cheap laugh or two (i've gotten several already).

kirra wrote:Yes, many Thanks to James, Greg and all of the non-spewing people on this thread It's amazing how I seemed to be the only person who got shit for going off topic. Thanks to folks that supported me as David truly does not know what the hell he is talking about David you have a lot of explaining and apologizing to do but def wait till your calm. Remember, one item at a time & copy both sides of the thread. Geir get your chair fixed, learn how to directly answer questions and try to be a nice guy Jeff, too bad you couldn't have wrangled your posse in and taken control over David who indeded was the one who hijaked your thread with spew and negative BS (apologizing doesn't count) To the lowlife out there spreading rumours about me and my family to David (spilled the beans) and whomever, get a subscription to Star Magazine. Your a pathetic SOB - oops another insult from me -sorry- dang it Stay safe all ~ Kirra

Below is a summary the useful data in this rant:

"Yes, many Thanks to James ... Stay safe all ~ Kirra"

Russ Walling wrote:Yelling of beta could also help, but usually they would need to ask for it, which may never happen. Unsolicited beta gets some curt replies at times, even from those who need it most.

I think this is true, especially the part about not asking for help. It's that old ego thing. I don't think it hurts, however, to gently ask if the victims-to-be might need a little help or advice. I've done that kind of thing before -- asking if they need beta, not giving unsolicited beta -- and it has usually resulted in a great sense of relief among all involved, not to mention alleviation of a potential rescue situation.

kirra wrote: Thanks Geir, was this a joke or yet another evasion of a direct question....I'm being nice and asking Your absolutely correct Ken. Some time ago when this all started, I attempted to do just that. I also tried to mention it once again when Russ started in again. Problem is "You can lead a horse to water..." I'm always open to offline debates. David and I had a wonderful conversation "for a short time" funny Susan -- gee....more lies, what a surprise. Yet another vocabulary rant taken out of context and more spew. Good for you -- you have found SPELL check also..! I'm impressed. So you think that you are the only person here allowed to edit..? -- oh...I'm Susan, "Please jump on my side now and watch me spew and edit" Nice comments Russ, good to see you are able to stay on topic only when your trying to win favor from the threads participants ~~~~~~~~~~no edit ~~~~~~~~~~~beware~~~~~~~~no spell check~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you & Susan now have nothing more negative to say perhaps we can all move on

Kirra, I find myself wondering what is not true in my statement above. Did you not send me an email unsolicited and suggest that I was the same as a "dog beater" and "child molester"? I urge you to answer the question truthfully and stand behind your words. Emails are a funny thing.......and often saved.

As for what's "looong established" go back to ripping off your family and stay out of my business. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

~Susan

Mark, I have plenty of Paramedic training and have done a lifes worth of High Angle Rescue seminars and actual work for the Discovery Channel, GoFastSports, Bridge Day, West Virginia...blah blah blah. I sorta thought I was on topic, but maybe I just got confused by the bickering and didn't understand your original point.

The pictures above are from this last September at the Royal Gorge Bridge. She hit the wall and shattered her leg on the Worlds Tallest Bridge(over 1,000'). Had her in a basket and delivered to paramedics in around 28 minutes. Handy thing traveling around with 1,400' of Blue Water static line and an equalized litter, eh?

You're also right on Mark, we didn't give a crap weather or not Melissa had insurance.

you were on topic, I thought.

I tried to post on a more general question of SAR & insurance.

Cool man, I quit drinking and my focus has been lagging. Seriously!

Hank Caylor wrote:we didn't give a crap weather or not Melissa had insurance.

Right on, Hank