See Approach Map (this might hurt your feelings)

(Sorry...couldnae resist...I tried but...couldnae...)

Which should take you to ?Approach Map 8!!!?

Which can then take you to ?Approach Map 7!!!!?

and then...

and then...!!!!

See you out there...

I can't seem to get this door shut...

I'm trying to be funny...not assertive...I tried that...
but communication is ultimately only what is heard, not what is said or how it is said...(besides, it seems like there are plenty of recent posts that are much more blunt than this)

I really can't seem to get much in edgewise on here anyway...

and I'm not planning on buying any future "Wasatch" supplements by the one who we must not name...even if he is trying to do the world good (i.e. generally helpful not simply placeholders...right?)

ooo

"ooo" thanks for the shit-ton of work you do...will you maybe just ease up on it a bit, I can't seem to get past the hard feelings and recognize when something you say is helpful...
I think you contribute too much...
but...I'm not going to bed mad either...see ya

How much more space does Mountainproject have anyways? Maybe you can just have your own slice of the domain?

I don't want to step into something waaaay over my head, but I guess I must - Why are climbers so secretive about the places to climb?

Why do you want to discourage someone from filling up this resource with more information? Isn't that the point of the website?

Is it selfishness that wants to keep things to ourselves in fear that other people may enjoy it and ultimately crowds will build?

I don't see crags like a powder stash; the routes don't get tracked out after someone climbs them. Don't they clean up and get better?

Maybe I'm missing the point or something else but ... I say the more routes and areas on here the better.

I guess I'm biased...

I am a climber that isn't connected to the climbing mafia and don't know where anything is unless it's published somewhere.

That is a very good question ICstevoh, one that I have been pondering for years. I have lost "friends" over it. You may note I often publish new routes ASAP after the FA even on crags that have plenty of room for more for that very reason....I WANT and EXPECT traffic to clean them up. Guys like Hardman Ben Folsom or Paul Ross are similar in that way....they let people know practically the day after they climb something. Way early on, I probably showed (the grand tour) PR many areas on his first visit to the Swell, and I did some of his first climbs with him there. Did he steal the area from me? NO. I didn't keep it a secret and neither did he. He has certainly been prolific. So much rock in this state, it's all good.

To answer your question about the secrecy, though....well, you got me. Maybe some sense of ownership or something. I would hope we all have a sense of ownership to our crags....a socialist system if you will which enables people to leave the place cleaner than they find it and share the wealth of new places to play.
In the case of LCC, however, some of the secrecy may very well stem from a real, not imagined, fear of another person interfering or laying claim to it... a case in point is climbing and drilling a route that later is claimed to have been a never reported, never cleaned 5.9-5.10X route done years earlier. Another tactic is producing high definition topos of an area with names and lines drawn in of an area that hasn't even been climbed, yet....it just may want to be saved (laying a claim) for later. Nobody owns the rock, but once it has been climbed, it is expected that future climbers will acknowledge the ascent as it was done and accept the style. It is only hoped the FA was created in the same style of the given area.

But styles evolve. 25 years ago it was frowned upon to establish a climb from the top, now it seems in many circles it is more frowned upon to climb it boldly from the ground!....Some of the bolts might not be in the best clipping spots?! I have heard people diss the boldness and defend the easy way. It often literally takes nothing but the cash to own a drill to just rap and drill a new route. It seems a lot less satisfying, a lot less creative, etc....but again, that only applies to the FA. Subsequent climbers usually don't give a rat's ass how it was first climbed and even more rarely do they inquire. But I'm hardly pure in that regard. Some are, and I extend kudos.

You've posed a question that could require a whole book in length to answer adequately, but maybe this sheds some light to why climbers of especially new areas may be secretive. That's my take on it anyway. Oh, and I am not part of the climbing Mafia, either.

I don't much like secrecy either, but I can totally respect the people who don't want to let the cat out of the bag because to do so would mean that someone is going to go up to the area and mess with their routes.

It would really be nice if there weren't exceptions to the general ethic of common sense and respect for others that I've experienced from members of the Wasatch climbing community, however. If that were the case I'm sure there would be much less of a urge to keep things secret.

One of the best things about developing new crags or areas is the solitude and the ability to see your own visions realized. Seems reasonable not to bring attention to your efforts if you still have unfinished business.

Oh, and we refer to James as Don Garrett. Despite his denial he is indeed a member of the Wasatch Cosa Nostra.

No lo sono la Cosa Nostra. Have people messed with your routes SGileadi?

No, I based my comments on all the shenanegans that have been happening over the last while around here... I haven't developed any routes here myself (yet). I do know that there are people that don't like to share their new areas for that reason however, and like I said, I can respect that even though I'm not in on any of the secrets. Especially since there is a lifetime's worth of documented routes to do here in Utah anyway.

Of course, when someone does share their new stuff, I do like to get up there and climb it!

the folks who get upset about secret crags are lazy and unoriginal fools, otherwise they would have found them before the first developers did and developed it themselves!

some may argue that the folks who develop routes and areas and don't report it are the real purists since they are climbing for themselves and not to impress others with all of their fa's.

i've witnessed a bunch of areas which remained pristine for years until some egotist came along, put up a hard route, or snagged a fa on a hard project, and then told the world which came and trashed the place. its easy to see why some folks don't want to tell the world about crags they have found.

to paraphrase the great beast( e.g. 666,) aliester crowley (circa 1895)"one should not report the 1st ascent or the first ascent by a solitary climber for ones ego but only to guide others to the same enjoyment"

Seems reasonable to some people Dave. Didn't think the use of the word socialism in this progressive context would go over that great in this State.
Oldtradfat dude sounds like he is talking about Dave Anderson, who never reported his routes. However, it seems hypocritical to some to even read or peruse guidebooks (whether onlne or in print) if you think those that do report are doing do so for purely egotistical reasons (i.e., the nonegotistical route developers being those who keep the routes secret forever). Besides, all the people concerned with here report them after "their unfinished business".
Certainly different ways of looking at it, and that I think was the point.
I don't have any secret areas, but then again, I may have had people climb routes I had had my eye on....too much rock for my lifetime...I'd rather have someone climb it.

In case anyone cares I found the first photo on the approach map in no time at all with google earth. I put "little cottonwood canyon, ut" into the search bar and it got me pretty close. Then, using the fact that there was a change in the photos used, and a N/S running area of habitation, I found it in seriously 3 minutes of cruising around.

I always get psyched when I see new routes and photos published by both Ben and Tyler. Its a vicarious adventure for me when I can't get out and inspires me to try something new when I do get out. Those you guys do share are pretty damn cool - and they motivate me more than you'll know.

It makes me want to get better so I can get ready for the next new thing that'll pop up. Sometimes my partners hate me for dragging them all over the place looking for your stuff but they're at least patient with me some of the time.

Long live the secret crag!

No ego? My whole life is an ego trip!! Your lives aren't? What do you spend your days thinking about? Man...

(for the record T, I could have gone, it would have been no harm, no foul)

John J. Glime wrote:(for the record T, I could have gone, it would have been no harm, no foul)

hmm...sounds like a trick to me. "Fine. Go. Do whatever you want" . I learned long ago, that doesn't really mean it's fine, and it sure as hell doesn't mean go.

Please refrence your "Married Female Dialouge Decoder Ring" manual for more details. I believe the zeroing point for proper translation is "Yes=Hell No"

My daughter and I have a psychic connection, she is not even close to ready to come out into this cold world. If I could only convince her mother.

Tea wrote: hmm...sounds like a trick to me. "Fine. Go. Do whatever you want" . I learned long ago, that doesn't really mean it's fine, and it sure as hell doesn't mean go. Please refrence your "Married Female Dialouge Decoder Ring" manual for more details. I believe the zeroing point for proper translation is "Yes=Hell No"

This is so true. But sometimes... when she's already mad at you for going... its kind of an excuse to just do whatever you want. Haven't been there for a while and I'm kinda glad.

I miss my secret crags now that its winter and I can't get out to them. Sure, the skiing is great but I'm all fit from the gym and want to USE it.

Well, I still hear that the mention of socialism in context to the beloved concept of Secret crags would ruffle too many feathers. Difference in opinions, I guess. So, are you therefore implying that we WILL have a republican president in 2008? That it is inevitable? That is sad Utah born fatalism, perhaps...where a liberal elected official is about as rare as a palm tree in the Wasatch and most of the progressive thinkers apathetically don't vote.
And what does Via Secret Crags mean? (Italian for "go to the Secret Crags"?) It continues to be a wonder to me that Clinton was impeached for lying about a BJ, but Bush hasn't been impeached for lying about innumerous things in order to re-finance the beloved military machine. Violence has always been more acceptable than sex.
How different the world of climbing would be if we all decided to just have our own little secrets..., then none of you would be able to LOVE your history as much as you can now... how sad it would be really....ego? I stand behind what I said before. What a tragedy if Ricardo Cassin or Fred Beckey had never revealed their Secrets? Give me one example (one will suffice) where one of you revealed your secret crag and horribly changed it forever. And if somebody mentions Gregorio's modern Hellgate, well IMO, people and traffic have only improved the place, so that shouldn't count. I think may be all in your imagination, really....paranoia? It has nothing to do with ego or chuffing for the secrets? Case in point...I was in Ibex 5 times this Fall. Didn't see a soul on any occasion.
Merry Christmas in any case!

Hello00oo

Superslab.

oh, welcome back James.

Merry Christmas Ten,
You think Superslab changed for the worse, somehow? Was it ever a secret crag? By Fred?

no, but when ooo was shown the new stuff he had to try and make it all his own- either by claiming lines half done or by poorly writing up existing lines. He was completely obnoxious - just as anticipated by the area developers. If that guy had any sense of decency at all he'd have done things differently. Its people like him that make others keep mum.