climbing with avalanche gear

There is a lot of interesting discussion about avalanches recently and one that is great to hear is people questioning the old "swimming motion" if you are ever caught. I've always thought that the thing to do is to protect your core and airway.

Having been in several avalanches, buried and dug people out the thing that I remember the most is having absolutely no control while being chucked around. I didn't know which way was up or down, and the thought or trying to thrash around and try to head for the blue sky was a joke. I never knew which way was up. Instead I rolled up into a ball and tried to cover my mouth. It seemed to work as I'm still here today.

Route selection is the most single important aspect of backcountry winter travel. You won't always know the stability of the snow, but you can determine whether you are in avalanche terrain or not.

Many times its not the approach to the ice route that I've worried about its the stuff above me while climbing and the change of temps during the day...

Its been stated a bit above with varying opinions but I tend to feel that on alpine routes, whether coulior climbs or ice climbs atleast a beacon and shovel are nice to have. Throw in a probe if you don't mind the weight I'm sure its worth it. Reasoning: Approaches to climbs in my experience tend to be more avy prone than the climb it self (leave the extras at the bottom if you can pic it up later) with the exception of couliors depending on conditions. Descents are often just as bad. Its all about assessing the route for me. Long approach passing through avy terrain = avy gear. Short approach with low risk = no avy gear. I can think of just one occasion (one is enough for me) where changing conditions through the day made me happy to have a beacon on as I scurried me complacent ass to safety during an approach narrowly avoiding taking a ride.

I have been taught to carry beacon, shovel, probe with me any time there is avy danger. Why would you not? While being caught on route is most likely going to negate the need for it by trauma, what about the approach and most especially, the descent? Climbers, because they do not have flotation, cut much deeper into the snowpack when they travel, potentially weakening a slope far more than a skier would. While we may not generate the kinetic energy that a skier might, we are still at a significant risk. I think it is absurd to travel in the backcountry, skiing or not, without having taken AIARE avy courses and carrying proper rescue equipment.

In my mind it is analogous to travel in crevassed terrain. Sure, the probability that you will fall in is low, especially if you use your head about where you travel (during early morning for snow conditions, following compression zones, probing before crossing a bridge, etc), but you absolutely MUST carry your pulleys and prusik loops because no matter how careful you are, sometimes people fall in!

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Ian Wolfe wrote:I have been taught to carry beacon, shovel, probe with me any time there is avy danger. Why would you not?

Maybe because you're familiar with the terrain, or terrain features in general and also have a handle on conditions and some history of the local snowpack? As well as a clear weather picture for the day.

"Know before you go". A UAC quote methinks.

There's been a number of times backcountry skiing that whilst meeting up at the trailhead, someone will forget their beeper and/or shovel. I'd like to think that it didn't really change our travel plans for the day. I wouldn't seek out terrain and conditions to push needing the avy gear. I try to make those types of decisions with regard to the possibility, up front, of getting into trouble, not reactionary, which is too late IMHO.

Hey, John Mac (who I suspect has a bit more time in the avy saddle that most of us here), do you carry a beacon and shovel when out "winter climbing"?

Cheers,

Jesus John that's intense. Glad they didn't get you.

If you have the option take your avy courses in Canada. They are much better in all facets of the training.

Ian Wolfe wrote:I have been taught to carry beacon, shovel, probe with me any time there is avy danger. Why would you not?

I absolutely agree with Ian. Why would you not?

Beyond the obvious approach dangers, beacons are still beneficial on a wall. Knowing how difficult it can be to find a buried climber or skier, I would feel much more comfortable knowing that I had increased the chances of my body being recovered for my family. The reasons for wearing one far outweigh - no pun intended - the inconvenience of not. Other than the expense of purchasing one, which is a small price to pay for something that could literally save your life, there is no disadvantage to wearing one. They weigh nothing and will not inhibit your climbing ability.

Ryko wrote:Also it is good to get buried and have your partners find you; it give you perspective on how claustrophobic it really is and how helpless you really are.

This will most definitely change your perspective, as will the information gained from completing an avalanche course.

I guess if anyone knows pass along; those stats from the ANAM, are they technical climbing routes or hiking up mountains by those calling what they are doing climbing?

I understand most of what is probably reported is by the agency in charge. 10% seems way high, even 2-3% seems high to me for technical routes.

Overall, on this forum also there seems a alot of cross over between different aspects of mountain recreation that somewhat gets applied to technical routes.

Mark Nelson wrote:I guess if anyone knows pass along; those stats from the ANAM, are they technical climbing routes or hiking up mountains by those calling what they are doing climbing?

Both, I would imagine. Getting whacked by an avalanche coming from above your WI 6 ice climb, or slogging up the standard route on Rainier, same same.

Mark Nelson wrote:I understand most of what is probably reported is by the agency in charge. 10% seems way high, even 2-3% seems high to me for technical routes. Overall, on this forum also there seems a alot of cross over between different aspects of mountain recreation that somewhat gets applied to technical routes.

Sure. Some guy soloing Pinnacle Gully on Mount Washington, versus some guy on the trail to (or coming from) the summit of Mount Washington, for instance. Both exposed to the avy risk. Both counted as climbers.

What's interesting to me, is not the percentage of climbers that are killed by avalanches each year (as opposed to their rappel anchor blowing, as a cause of death), but, to look at the avy data in particular. Surf up your local stats. If you go into the UAC website here, they have the raw data for avalanche accidents. In the last two years, almost all the fatalities were trauma (with only one possible exception, a guy that wasn't found). All that avy gear wouldn't have done a rip of good for survival and, really, may have contributed to the hubris of folks being out there in the first place.

I agree with Ken that it gives family piece of mind when they find the deceased, but, in the case of at least the types of climbing that I do, and that folks I know of out climbing in the winter are exposed here to, mostly, its ice climbing and gullies above that rip. You'll know where to look for the body. It'll usually be at the end of the rope.

Eeek. Sobering discussion.

Watch yer topknots!

"Climbers, because they do not have flotation, cut much deeper into the snowpack when they travel, potentially weakening a slope far more than a skier would"

Ian, not sure about that. Seems to me, if you happen to be on top of windslab, wearing skis would be more likely to cause a horizontal failure of the snowpack. (Tensile failure ??) In a continental range, my understanding is that this is the most common cause of avalanche accidents, due to the common presence of depth hoar. In fact, the only times I've experienced a "whoompf" in the backcountry was while skiing.

And I agree with the above comments re: good judgement and decision making. Knowing when things are potentially dangerous, and being willing to walk/ski away to return for a safer day is far more important than wearing a beacon.

Brad White wrote:Knowing when things are potentially dangerous, and being willing to walk/ski away to return for a safer day is far more important than wearing a beacon.

I don't get the comparison. Good sense and beacons are both tools, and each has its place in avalanche territory. Why would you not maximize your chances of survival by carrying the available tools?

Avalanches are more apt to occur under certain conditions, although that is not to say that they won't occur when least expected. After living and working in Little Cottonwood Canyon for several seasons, that lesson has become crystal clear to me.

You are correct in that prevention is the best deterrent, and wearing a beacon will provide a certain level of prevention against not being found if you are buried. It's really a no-brainer, IMO.

Ken Cangi wrote: I don't get the comparison. Good sense and beacons are both tools, and each has its place in avalanche territory. Why would you not maximize your chances of survival by carrying the available tools?

Because along with understanding the risk, is how to mitigate that risk. If the avy risk is low, then, carrying a bunch of extra gear on a climb might slow you down to the point of not being safe in terms of being out longer, or slower on route.

Sure, having gear if you need it would be great. But, most especially alpine climbers are minimalists. I've got to figure out what gear I need to insure my survival based on the route, etc, and not just the avy hazard. By being very conservative, I don't usually consider that a beacon/shovel is required but would rather toss in an extra screw, or slightly warmer parka, or a thermos and/or lightweight stove. Gear that makes sense given the likely scenarios, not the unlikely ones.

I guess my comparison would be...you're going to climb the Great White Icicle. Maybe tomorrow. Its a known avalanche slide path. Would you carry a beeper, shovel and probes right now? Of course not. Would you mid winter on a high hazard day, when the route was iffy in terms of a chance it could slide? Nope, because you wouldn't go near it.

I mean, really. Ken, did you ice climb here? And, if so, how often in LCC, Provo Canyon, Santaquin, Joes, etc, did you wear a beacon/shovel etc?

I'm not saying folks shouldn't wear their avy gear. Just trying to justify why some of us don't.

And, I'll admit, I've been in and near a few avalanches both skiing and climbing. My closest calls have been ice climbing. My own fault for not paying attention to changing conditions (rapid warming, large slide paths aboves the routes I was on). In those cases, no avy gear would have helped save me, IMHO.

Ken Cangi wrote:Avalanches are more apt to occur under certain conditions, although that is not to say that they won't occur when least expected. After living and working in Little Cottonwood Canyon for several seasons, that lesson has become crystal clear to me.

I've never been surprised to hear of an avalanche fatality or close call here in the Wasatch. In other words, on "those" kind of days, in the backcountry, it wasn't a surprise when folks were playing on certain aspects, at certain elevations, in high hazard conditions, on "those" types of slopes, that someone got into trouble.

Not to belabor a point, but, when was there an avalanche in LCC that was least expected? I'd be curious to know the specifics. Recreating in LCC for 22+ years I don't recall any surprises. One I remember in Logan UT a few years back was when those guys were caught winter camping in what was usually a safe spot, and the wind changed direction in the middle of the night, loaded the slope above them, and it slid and killed them at camp. Some folks might remember that at least some of that party were very experienced backcountry folks and climbers. And, that was kind of unusual.

I just think that folks might not jump if they didn't think there was a safety net.

Tremper devotes a fair amount of print to talking about the demographics of who gets caught in avalanches and why. The whole male hubris, bulletproof with a beeper type scenario. "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain". Worth a look if you haven't seen it. Beepers and shovels don't prevent you from getting caught in an avalanche. They are reactive tools only. Unfortunately, its those tools that folks are expected to "use" if going out into avalanche terrain. Its kind of backwards thinking.

Anyhoo...

Brian in SLC wrote: Recreating in LCC for 22+ years I don't recall any surprises.

Do you think Dutton and Bullough were surprised to have triggered the wind slab that pummeled them on the Pfeiff last February? I can't speak for them, although I was at the base of White Pine during the rescue, and I remember how windy it was that day. I was also aware of the prevailing conditions. These guys were not noobs, and they knew that area well, but they still got hit.

This was the weather history leading up to that day:

"Weather History:

The Wasatch Range received 6-10" of new light density snow from January 30th-early February 2nd. Densities were generally less than 8%. Strong winds the evening of Feb 1st resulted in numerous Class 1 and Class 2 avalanches in steep wind drifted terrain, with most being less than a foot deep and 60 feet wide. Sustained strong west to northwest winds allowed avalanche control teams at the ski areas and backcountry skiers to trigger similar avalanches on Saturday February 3rd as well. The reported avalanches were generally class 1 or 2 (harmless to could potentially bury a person), and localized to steep wind drifted terrain. No natural avalanche activity was reported during the day."

I wonder if they even checked with Liam, Mongo, or anyone else in Snow Safety about the conditions for that day. The point is that, in spite of your 22+ years of good fortune, it only takes one miscalculation to impinge a major suck factor upon an otherwise great day.

Brian, I am not trying to convince you to carry avy gear. That is entirely up to you. Moreover, I am not concerned about the veterans in this forum. My concern is for the less experienced climbers who might forgo appropriate safety measures because a few seasoned guys posted that taking such precautions was a waste of time. I would hate to think that someone, who read this forum, got buried without a beacon, or lost a partner, because I told them not to bother bringing the tools that might have saved them.

Therefore, my recommendation stands: I strongly suggest that anyone planning to spend any time in avalanche country - whether alpine climbing or skiing - should first take a reputable avalanche safety course, and then carry the appropriate gear when in those conditions.

Peace

Brian,

Sorry it took me a couple days to get back to you.

I always wear a small day sac, so carrying a small shovel and probe is easy. But I don't climb hard.

Cheers

John

Ken Cangi wrote: Do you think Dutton and Bullough were surprised to have triggered the wind slab that pummeled them on the Pfeiff last February? I can't speak for them, although I was at the base of White Pine during the rescue, and I remember how windy it was that day. I was also aware of the prevailing conditions. These guys were not noobs, and they knew that area well, but they still got hit.

I remember that day last winter with clarity. Was backcountry skiing in LCC that day. I remember when details of the accident were barely forthcoming and we'd heard that climbers on the Pfeifferhorn were involved, and thinkin' about that summit ridge...

Yeah, I think they were surprised, but, not in hindsite given the day and conditions. When they stepped out on that windslab (which they should have been looking for, given that it’s commonly there and given the conditions that day), they should have backed off and headed to the right, or down. Total pilot error. There but for the grace though, to be sure...

Ken Cangi wrote:The point is that, in spite of your 22+ years of good fortune, it only takes one miscalculation to impinge a major suck factor upon an otherwise great day.

Well said.

But, it hasn’t been all good fortune...

But, true, and that's a pretty darn good example of gettin' surprised by the avy dragon.

I follow those summitpost Utah climber's posts and their close calls. Near miss on Nebo a couple years ago. Yeah, they're experienced "hikers" and "mountaineers" but with little or no avalanche training. They routinely ignore conditions and terrain traps and they seem very ignorant to the avalanche danger when they bag these peaks. I worry for their safety. They are, and will continue to be, accidents waiting to happen. Maybe we all are. Ugh.

I'm probably delusional in thinkin' that I'm conservative...

Ken Cangi wrote:My concern is for the less experienced climbers who might forgo appropriate safety measures because a few seasoned guys posted that taking such precautions was a waste of time. I would hate to think that someone, who read this forum, got buried without a beacon, or lost a partner, because I told them not to bother bringing the tools that might have saved them. Therefore, my recommendation stands: I strongly suggest that anyone planning to spend any time in avalanche country - whether alpine climbing or skiing - should first take a reputable avalanche safety course, and then carry the appropriate gear when in those conditions. Peace

Excellent advice!

My point is, I don't think that going to the store and gettin' a gadget makes your winter climbing safer. I do think that having a beacon, for most folks, allows them the mindset to take risks they wouldn't normally take. And the odds that a beacon will save you are very slim. In the last two seasons in the Wasatch, pretty much none of the folks that died in avalanches would have been saved by a beacon. And, I'm struggling to think of an example where a climber, whether ice climbing or peak bagging, was ever saved by a beacon at least here in Utah.

I don't know. Is it better to be ignorant and carry a beacon and shovel? It’s kind of an implied safety net that really shouldn't be considered, IMHO.

Good stuff. Get some avy edjumacation. Then get the gadgets. Learn how to use them, and practice. Nothing more frustrating than someone with a gadget that they should have learned how to use...

Male hubris. Leading cause of most avalanche accidents? Look at the demographics of who gets hurt, killed, or has close calls.

We've met the enemy and it’s...us!

Good thoughts, Ken. Cheers.

I guess the problem that I have with most of this is that the gear & education is focused on backcountry skiing & ski mountaineering. To apply the same assessment tools & equipment to technical climbing -- is this practical?

It would seem more practical to me to have several first responders, support for search & medical, and transport at the base of a route ready to go if we are looking at what is really gonna be of some benefit; probably will need a surgeon too as more than likely we would be looking at organ & vascular damage.

But hey, here I am in the snow, fresh from an 400 footer, woo hoo! let's do that again!!

Brian, I guess we don't experience quite as predictable a snowpack in CO as you enjoy in the intermountain areas. While it's true that most accidents seem to happen on days where it might have been predicted, the danger is never non-existent, since we have a lot of persisting weak layers because of the thin snowpack.

I agree with you about using your head. In assessing avalanche danger, the guy who taught me, who has been the head of snow safety at Winter Park for something like 20+ years, said you should never ski a slope if you wouldn't ski it without your beacon. Never-the-less, he carries his gear every time he goes backcountry, and insists every patroller does as well, even though we have the luxury of dropping 2lbs of high explosive on a slope to see what it will do.

But right, we are talking about climbers carrying equipment and not skiers. One of the unfortunate realities of climbing is that we are often roped up, which can pretty much screw us in an avalanche. That which sweeps one or two members of a team away will probably drag the others off with it. Usually bad news for all involved.

However, there are times when we cross avalanche terrain unroped. Many places in the Rockies, or the hill below Panorama Point on Rainier early season are great examples. This situation is exactly analogous to a ski burial situation.

One other minor point. I can find somebody with a beacon way faster than it would take me to uncover 40 feet of buried rope from cemented snow, and I can move a lot more snow with a shovel than with my adze. Both of these points translate to faster recovery time, which means I can start to stabalize other injuries injuries sooner.

I'm not saying everybody has to carry it, but I don't really see any major negatives from carrying it, and I see a large possible benefit. Again, I'm going to make the analogy to glacier travel, since that's where I spend a large amount of my time climbing. 99% of the time nothing happens. That one time it does you are damn glad to have hauled those pulleys and prusik loops up (if you are a minimalist, maybe an atc and an ascender to perform a rescue more quickly) all the other times.

I feel like I'm agreeing with almost all the points here (as have most of us?) but given those same datapoints, we collectively reach two different conclusions from it. I've heard enough stories of people getting rescued from full burials out at Berthoud pass to ignore the fact that beacons work, but I will also think about how most of those accidents were triggered by the buried party, and like my mentor told me, "would you do it without your beacon?"

I completely agree with Ken and the others about not only having and bringing the right gear, but having the training to use it. I've been very lucky in my time in the mountains as far as Avy goes. I've sat out slide fests watching all the routes for a weeks vacation in France slide one after the other from the warm dining room of the Cosmique Refuge above Chamonix as well as watching wicked lucky snowboarders ski out the runout zones of nasty late season slab slides in Austria.

The only addition I would make is to seek out a bit of medical training to ensure the person you dig out of the snow pack can maintain an airway as well as begin to rewarm with out critical failures.

We're the ones out there folks. Friends and strangers have pulled me out of more than one rough situation and I think it's up to us to take care of everyone else out there in the b/c.

v/r
Tony

Speaking of ski mountaineering - central CO has a real dogshit base layer this year -- if you want to call it a layer; be careful when we finally do get our dumps (like this weekend).

here's the CAIC website

Code Orange by the way (watch for any suspicious activity & report it to the TSA for further doughnut analysis) -- seriously, here's the snowpack discussion, 11/29/07 approx 1700hrs MST:

Our snowpack is beginning to get interesting. New snow fell on a very shallow and weak foundation of either faceted grains (sugar snow) or a mix of wind loaded layers. Areas where there was little to no snow are beginning to get covered. The last storm came and went with sustained moderate to strong winds. The 10-Mile range had winds up to 101 mph!. So this means that most of the new snow has been re-loaded to depressions, gullies and Kansas. Observers have confirmed how tender the newly loaded layers are, reporting cracking and easily triggered small slides all above tree line on North through South aspects. Skiers near Loveland Pass triggered several small avalanches, but up to 2' deep. Today a ski cut in the 10-mile range release a hard slab avalanche over 2' deep and nearly 200' wide on a north facing slope near treeline. These conditions are not widespread, but are common where wind slabs are resting on the weak faced snow that formed before the last storm.

We are transitioning into a more wide-spread avalanche problem. Proceed with caution if you venture out into the backcountry. Expect experiencing signs of instability like shooting cracks, whumpfing collapses, or recent avalanches. Expect unstable slabs on steep terrain near and above treeline, and carefully evaluate a slope before you commit to it. Being caught in an avalanche will not only ruin your day but it will hurt.

Brad White wrote:"Climbers, because they do not have flotation, cut much deeper into the snowpack when they travel, potentially weakening a slope far more than a skier would" Ian, not sure about that. Seems to me, if you happen to be on top of windslab, wearing skis would be more likely to cause a horizontal failure of the snowpack. (Tensile failure ??) In a continental range, my understanding is that this is the most common cause of avalanche accidents, due to the common presence of depth hoar. In fact, the only times I've experienced a "whoompf" in the backcountry was while skiing. And I agree with the above comments re: good judgement and decision making. Knowing when things are potentially dangerous, and being willing to walk/ski away to return for a safer day is far more important than wearing a beacon.

Interesting conversation.

First, to avalanche, a slab has to fail in shear. Tensile failure is secondary. No biggie, just kind of interesting. And yes, depth hoar is often an issue in continental snowpacks like Colorado. However, other persistent weak layers, like near surface facets, are responsible for a lot of action.

Secondly, I think it's important to remember the majority of avalanche accidents happen during periods of moderate to considerable hazard. The reason being, it's easy to recognize very stable conditions and very unstable conditions. Keep this "middle of the road hazard" trap in mind when making decisions.

Third, remember what slope angles form slabs. The rule of thumb is 30-45 degrees. (That being said, slabs can and have run on slopes both lower angle and higher angle...) Slab avalanches are most frequent around 38 degrees. Less steep and there's a decreasing effect of gravity. Steeper than that, snow tends to sluff off and not form slabs as readily. Good for climbers.

With all of that in mind, if you look at your route, what's the slope angle? Maybe 35ish at the bottom, quickly turning to 60+ degrees straight to the summit? Probably not going to see too much slab formation. Got a 38 degree slope above the main gulley? Maybe yikes. I know this is nothing new, but just trying to reinforce the basics.

Also, Mark, while I understand your rather grim view on this, I offer you this situation: as much as you might hope that the hypothetical avalanche might take both climbers out, what happens when your buddy is buried, you're standing there having narrowly escaped, and you have no idea if he's alive? With no way to find or dig him out? Yes, he assumed that risk by going on the climb, but I don't want to be in the position of telling his family I couldn't even try to save him because I didn't have the tools.

One of the inherent problems with avalanche statistics is that they're predisposed towards mortality. Accidents and near misses often go unreported, so we don't necessarily have a reliable data set for looking at these things. You can assume that your SOL and f@$! if something comes, but what if it were survivable?

All that being said, remembering to use one's head and not take unnecessary risk--regardless of gear--is great advice given here by a lot of experienced folks. Be safe out there!

Cheers,
Justin