Ice Tools - Too Many Choices...

So Xmas is coming early this year and I have some cash burning a hole in my pocket. I'm upgrading my Rages to something more sexy, which shouldn't be hard to do since those tools are decidedly unsexy.

I'm thinking either Quarks or the new Vipers (I like the idea of running both leashless or leashed), and swung them both. Vipers look good, but I worry about durability.

Since I can't make a decision and it's fun to talk ice gear, does anyone have any opinions/suggestions?

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/for_sale__wanted/for_sale_ice_tools/106051181

Probably not what you are looking for, but worth a try. They do work well on waterfall ice, but not nearly as well as the Vipers. For mixed climbing they are awesome.

The Cyborg crampons are awesome.

They aren't out until mid-November, but the new BD Cobra's are a thing of beauty. The carbon soaks up the vibrations, super light, swing perfectly, tons of clearance, and don't they look nice? I had a chance to test these last season. Unfortunately they are pretty expensive.

Climb safe on that ice.

Vipers are #1 in my opinion. I did have problems with the Viper Android leashes, and have gone back to the lockdown leashes, but the
tools are awesome--never worried about how tough they were--BD makes them and I expect to have them for years to come--if you're worried about the picks, you could always buy the Titan or Alaska picks.

I've never broken anything BD makes so I wouldn't worry too much about durability. I have a pair of Carbon Fiber Black Prophets that are still in great shape and have seen a ton of use.

I swung the Petzl Nomics last year and thought they were awesome. I liked them more than any tool I've ever swung, and you can still put a leash on them if you want. You should guve them a try. Maybe go to some event like the Ice festival and demo a bunch to see if there's anything else out there you might like.

First, you should describe what type of climbing you intend to do most of the time. Different tools for different jobs. For me, I purchased a pair of Nomics last year. Vertical ice and hard mixed has never been sweeter... Love them tools. I demo'ed everything under the sun and (for me) nothing compared to the Nomics for vertical ice and hard mixed climbing. They also do fine on lower angle stuff too (i.e. like topping out), I just found I had to choke up more. Anyway, that being said they do not have a hammer or adze. If your going to head up long mixed routes where you'll need to bang pitons or "clean" ice, they may not be the tool.

IMHO
Greg

I'm the oddball; I still dig the Grivel alp-wings; those weapons can do anything across many mediums.

I'd like to think I'd be cranking some hard mixed this season, but I'll most likely be climbing pure ice with some occasional mixed TR'ing. I'd like to make the transition over to climbing more mixed and also climbing leashless. But, I hesitate to go completely over to leashless and I still want a tool that will run well with a leash.

Thanks for the input so far, and I'd love what people like and don't like about their current tool setup. Any Quark users out there?

The carbon Cobra's look cool, but wouldn't all that exposed carbon lead to durability issues, especially in terms of the shaft striking rock?

I always thought Carbon was strong but had a tendency to crack if it took an impact.

I have heard of other people having issues w/ the android leashes as well. I've used the old version of the Viper a couple of times and was happy with it's performance on very steep ice as well as mixed terrain but was rather unimpressed on WI2/3, the curve of the shaft was too dramatic and you tend to smash your knuckles quite a bit on the lower angle stuff.

That being said, I picked up a pair of the new(er) Quarks last year and have been extremely happy with them. The curve of the shaft is more towards the head of the tool so you don't tend to bash the knuckles quite as much. The ice clipper leash (included rather than having to shell out more $$ for leashes) has been bomber and very easy to remove when shaking out or placing screws.

The only thing I would say is that the pick on the BD tools has a better angle at the tip (rounded rather than chiseled) so if you feel comfortable modifying pick angles you can shave down the Quark's pick to match that of the BD.

Hope this helps.

I've boycotted CM (Petzl) tools because they're always changing the picks. 5 years after you buy the tool, you either can't find the picks or have to settle for some hybrid pick that is a 'general replacement'.

I believe almost all the BD picks fit all the BD tools, and the tools were therefore designed for that pick! Of course, this also enhances your chances of finding a new pick if abroad or in the field when you damage one.

I have a pair of Quarks where the screw for the leash is up higher. That is my only major complaint for these tools. The new Quarks have the screw set lower, and are thus much easier to clip in and out of. The other downside of the Quark is that it does not have any after-market 2nd grip for the leashless option. Oh, and also, I totally bent the living piss out of my leash clip at Cody last year. They are POOR leashes in Cold WX. My proposed solution would be the Android Leash (though I never got around to buying them). All that said, I have been very happy w/ my Quarks as my first tool. I just didn't think I'd be wanting to transition to leashless so quickly. Plus, well, I got them on sale for a KILLER price.

I've only been climbing for 3 seasons now and I'm already wanting to go leashless (unless I'm on an alpine route). Now that the new Cobra's are out, I would be prone to buying them, as they can be used leashed, or leashless --- the perfect combo for a moderate climber. The Grivel Taa'Koon works very well in this manner too. If I had to do it again, I would buy the Taa'Koon or the Cobra, as they will perform VERY well on most types of terrain: Leash up when you're doing alpine, or ditch the leashes when you're going to Vail to crank on some mixed. Otherwise, you're looking at specialty tools for Alpine (less clearance, straighter, leashed) or Mixed (buy the Nomics).

RyanM wrote:The carbon Cobra's look cool, but wouldn't all that exposed carbon lead to durability issues, especially in terms of the shaft striking rock? I always thought Carbon was strong but had a tendency to crack if it took an impact.

It is pretty durable stuff but not for flexing I have seen trecking poles made out of it break when they got wedged between rocks then torqued. I would buy aluminum over carbon shafts. But the heat treated Al would probably crack slightly on a hard impact however the carbon might be in two pieces. The Al will definatly take rock impacts better as it has more ductility...

Avery Nelson wrote:I've boycotted CM (Petzl) tools because they're always changing the picks. 5 years after you buy the tool, you either can't find the picks or have to settle for some hybrid pick that is a 'general replacement'.

Blarrrgh! Damn you Charlet Moser. I'll take him to task for that, assuming I wear out my Quark's picks anytime soon.

I've climbed on the old Vipers for several years now - waterfall ice, alpine routes, alpine ice, mixed, etc. - and am very happy with them.

There was some issue with a certain batch of Android leashes a couple of years ago but that was fixed. I've run Viper Androids on my tools the whole time and don't recall them ever coming un-clipped when I didn't want them to (unless I did something very weird like choking-up and grapping the clip). Only down-side is that you can't reach the head of the tool with the leash attached. Minor annoyance and hadn't really caused me any big problems.

BD picks are great and fit all of their tools and they haven't changed the attachement system in years and years.

All that said, I have a pair of the new Cobras on order.

I also like the Nomics for steep ice and mixed. For me, the lack of a spike on the bottom makes them impractical for alpine use. This doesn't bother some other people though.

Of course the Quark is also an excellent tool.

Just depends on what works for you.

I have climbed with BD Cobras for about 7 years now - I have beat on them pretty good, and no carbon breakage issues. I love them and am buying a new pair this year. They are great for everyhting steep, but fair for low angle stuff (WI 2 or so) - you have to do a little pull back towards yourself at the end of your swing to hook the pick in - it works fine, but you have to think about it some.

Why doesn't anyone like the BD reactors?

David Appelhans wrote:Why doesn't anyone like the BD reactors?

Not enough clearance.

No adjustable grips for size of hands.

Crappy grip.

Speaking only for myself, of course.

T (Quark user)

If you're on a budget I'd try the Trango scorpions. My wife has a pair and I added the petzl ice clipper leashes so she could use leashes. They're a real simple functional tool for $144 each. I don't know why Trango doesn't advertise these more?

Drop any idea about leashes, period.....Get a tool that fits your hand,(they pretty much are all great) and get after it.....

Best way to decide, but your screwed now is to go to an ice fest and swing some of the tools so you can feel how your body responds to the different tools.....

I was a Charlet Moser fan for 12 years then switched to the Vipers and I'm quite happy with what the tool does for me.

Not the deciding factor, but Black Diamond does have the best pick attaching system on the market. To second Avery's point, they have kept the same system since sometime in the 80's. (back when it was Chouinard Equipment.) The best part, though, is that it requires no tools to swap picks and only the pick and 1 screw that can be dropped.

I'll put in my vote for the Nomics. Demoed a million different tools last year to complement my Alp Wings for steeper stuff. The nomics were head and shoulders above the rest. Bought em this fall and so far they have only confirmed my initial impression that they are miracle workers. They have the most efficient swing I've ever used and they are insanely stable when it comes to mixed. The picks also remove better than any I've dealt with. I've literally increased my leading ability on steep ice/mixed by one grade just by switching to the tools. Now I have to find excuses to bring along my Wings (ie. I need to bash some pitons, need the spike to plunge with) because I can't bear parting with my Nomics.