Black DIamond gear (protection) made in china??????

Eyes Of Green wrote: I never stated BD was likely to be dwindling in QC, I do not know how you inferred that. Anyway, about death from faulty equipment as being a motivator for strictest quality control: do not forget that in the Ford Explorer rollover deaths several years ago, Firestone's plant was ISO certified at the time, as was Ford itself to my knowledge (since, after all, to be fair to Firestone, Ford did NOT mount the tires to the specs recommended by Firestone in the first place on those Explorers [Ford set specs to underinflate the tires by quite a bit compared to the specs given and recommended by Firestone]. Ford felt a "cushier" ride in their Explorer was more important than appropriate tire inflation, so since the average driver almost never checks their tires regularly or maintains correct cold pressure, you can imagine why blowouts occurred so easily). FWIW, I'm a total fan of BD climbing equipment. But that doesn't mean I think their ISO audit is one of the pivotal factors in any quality control success they have.

My inference was based on what I felt to be a "so what, big deal" tonality. There are 2 ways to do business in this world: do enough to get by or do enough to get ahead. Your tone misled me to believe (much like the Ford Firestone debacle) that BD could hypothetically be in a "just get by" state of mind wearing their ISO approval as a facade. In fact chance may have it that this approval is subsequent to a high level of QC for all we know.

Eyes Of Green wrote: ... ISO may be a good starting point for discipline and control, but I don't believe it is a method that can ensure high caliber quality control overall....

ISO is NOT a QC method at all. It is a method of demonstrating to others that you have a decently thought out, documented, QC process. This is why it's required of suppliers of critical equipment.

rmsusa wrote: ISO is NOT a QC method at all. It is a method of demonstrating to others that you have a decently thought out, documented, QC process. This is why it's required of suppliers of critical equipment.

I understand. But still my only point was pretty much as you say, that BD's touting of ISO compliance only shows it's documented, not necessarily proving the quality of the products that do/will come out of the Chinese factory (although most likely the quality is essentially the same [we hope], but it sounds misleading to people who don't know anything about it, i.e. it sounds like ISO is somehow proof of high caliber quality management).

Interestingly, one of my climbing partners told me another partner of his had a brand new BD cam (C4 I believe) that was missing an entire lobe. He said he had never seen anything like it (not sure how his partner missed it when buying it, but maybe he ordered it or something). Anyway, he is now wondering if that cam came out of the Chinese factory/was assembled there/what have you....

Joe Lee wrote:My friend had a brand new blue C4 that had one lobe that was "sticking" I took a look at the cam and I saw that the axles were not centered (not even close) On one side the space between the two cams was too wide. On the other side, the space between the two cams was almost absent (this was preventing one cam from springing back into the resting position).

Well, the lobes couldn't be touching unless there was no spring in between them, which would be a whole other problem.

The lobes and stem on the C4's are free floating and you can, to an extent, slide them back and forth on the axle. Maybe your friend's just shifted during shipping and that is why it is sticking. I've seen this happen to a Camalot before, and just slid the lobe/stem back to center before the owner was getting ready to send it back.

Give it a try.

PS: this whole 'telephone' game of "my friend's friend's gear blah..." seems rather 'dangerous'

Avery Nelson wrote: PS: this whole 'telephone' game of "my friend's friend's gear blah..." seems rather 'dangerous'

That's why I emailed him to read this and correct my memory if needed. So you have the firsthand story now.

Boycott gear!!! Ropes made from petroleum from the middle east, cams made in china, this is all too unamerican and my precious bodily fluids are recoiling in horror.

Joe Lee wrote:Just a clarification on the cam that I mentioned. On the side of the cam where one lobe sticks, the lobes and springs are normal, but the axle is off center such that there is no extra space/give for the cams to slide laterally. On the other side, the amount of lateral play seems more than "normal". Just an observation. People can take this any way they want. Email me if you have any questions. nuff said Joe

Joe -- perhaps I wasn't clear in my prior post -- I was just trying to help with your issue.

I think you are calling the STEM an AXLE. There are two axles, and one stem.

EVERYTHING on the pair of axles, except for the riveted end caps slides back and forth, end to end. SLIDE the STEM to the CENTER (there may be some friction to overcome) and the cam and it's owner will be HAPPY again!

This has nothing to do with 'China made' or 'US made' or QC, but the design. I saw a US cam with this last year, and one of my C4's can look and behave like yours by merely sliding the stem off-center. Probably just got knocked around during shipping.

Cheers, and good luck.

Hi all,
BD's new Chinese made cams are on full display at the EMS here in New York City and probably other places, too I'm sure.
The price is exactly the same as it always was.
Long live outsourcing.

Eastvillage wrote:Hi all, BD's new Chinese made cams are on full display at the EMS here in New York City and probably other places, too I'm sure. The price is exactly the same as it always was. Long live outsourcing.

This is not outsourcing.

Try and keep the terminology accurate, for the sake of discussion. This is offshoring. The company doing the work is still BD.

Of course the price is the same.

Right-on Jimn.

Look, it IS outsourcing - a little commodity called labor. So, for the sake of discussion, let's try to keep it real.

I'm really not commenting... only "marking" this thread so I can find it later via my profile.

(though I don't believe that BD has maxed out all resources in SLC & cannot keep expanding stateside)

(nor that the increased profit margin from a massive decrease in labor costs ultimately results in anything beneficial, except for the internal economies of BD stateside & the local economy of BD-Asia/China)

If BD is saving money going to China, why aren't we saving money on their gear...oh yeah, capitalism. The bottom line is this: technically most companies making gear in china are US Based, so you could say they are made by US companies, but that isn't true. With all the recent recalls on China made toys , tooth paste, and the like..come on now, this is a bad decision. I expect more from BD. However you look at it, outsourcing, in-sourcing, etc.., it's not good for the middle class America when we start sending jobs over seas. Lets remember that a large part of our national debt is based off what we export vs. what we import...just look at the Dollar vs. the Euro. The less goods we produce here the greater the economic disparity. Thirty years ago some guy could get a girl knocked up in high school and get a job at a mill...probably not a great job, but one that could support his family and give them medical insurance, and retirement. Now, we have a lot of service jobs which offer no benefits, so the lower classes aren't being supported, and i believe we will all suffer from this.
Sorry for the soapbox, but the outdoor companies have been the last bastion of keeping it at home, and it's sad to watch them all go over seas. I applaud companies like Arc Teryx who have kept their company at home in Canada....are they still doing that ?

All the Arc'Teryx jackets I've seen in stores say " Made In China"

That's too bad. Thanks for the info

Metolius cams are still made in the US by climbers. Just a thought...

And I don't, and never have, cared for the Camalot design execution in any version since they first came out specifically because they've always had such a rattly, sloppy feel, and the thin axles just don't inspire confidence for me personally. Love the thumb loops, though - bummer they aren't the business end of the units.

With regard to the effects of globalization. Back in the late '80s MIT economics professor Lester Thurow, once commented: "in the not too distant future, if you have the skills of a Guatemalan day laborer, you're going to get paid like one even if you live in Brooklyn, NY."

The thrust of his comments was that this is all a result of a transportation revolution that has reversed the industrial revolution standard practice of moving skills to wherever the materials are located. He posited Globalization is a natural result of the ease at which we now move materials long distances at will. We can now simply move materials to wherever the requisite skills are available at the lowest cost.

He said the only hope for the future we, individually and collectively as a nation, have lays in enhancing our skill set. He was particualarly down on our education system with its lack of national standards, which he described as, "5000 incompetent local school boards, all cranking out a lousy product."

It is agreed that our school system is cranking out more liberal arts folks, rather then the math and sciences, and this Professor you mention does make a good point. But, how is the relationship to our national skill set linked to the dollar? I'm no professor, but i believe our 96 free trade agreements hurt our country by decreasing the skilled/ unskilled job market. Factories closed, or moved to foreign countries in order to compete?... or not to compete, but to make more money. That means less money in the local communities, a rise in small business killers (big box) also taking money out of the community. Now, a lot of farmers, and factories can't afford legal labor, and still turn a profit without government subsidies. We are becoming more of a country based on sales, and financial investment, because that is where the money is. I believe less people are getting science and engineering degrees, because the jobs aren't there, not because they are more interested in 17th century english lit...
China is growing at an amazing rate, and their currency is regulated to work in parallel with ours, those jobs are coming from somewhere. I'm not anti-china, but i do worry about the economic stability of all the economic classes of our country. If MIT was not 40,000 a year then i might want to take some classes there.

there are plenty of jobs in technology (though not in science--there is a HUGE difference). with a computer science degree fresh out of college i got an offer from the first place i sent my resume. all my engineering buddies from college had similar success. the reason people aren't getting technology degrees is because when they make their life choice to go into a field they're clueless 18-year-olds and aren't thinking 4 years ahead when they'll actually need to get a real job. tons of people go back to school later in life to get tech degrees. i met plenty of them back in the engineering program at my school.

but about black diamond. i've always stood behind a company outsourcing if they can't otherwise compete with their (also outsourcing) competitors' costs, but black diamond's prices clearly haven't gone down. if anything they've gone up at a steady rate. i'm going to think twice about buying black diamond gear from now on...though i'll probably give in and buy more BD stuff because it's hard to beat their quality. though all the chinese product recalls do worry me, especially when we're talking about gear that i frequently trust my life to.

nsf.gov/statistics/nsb0407/

I found this to be an interesting article, that would support your point.

thanks for the article luke. i'd heard and read similar things over the years but i'd never come across anything this conclusive. it seems that these days college has become more a social experience than an investment in the future. it's hard to say why students from other countries appear to be more forward-thinking than americans. maybe children from other countries are taught to be realistic while american children grow up surrounded by a media saturated with glamorous celebrities and a you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be mentality.

i guess what it all comes down to is that outsourcing is going to happen whether we like it or not, and to deal with it we have to be able to adapt to a changing world. a lot of people will probably disagree with me and i can understand that, but that is the way i see it.

Jon Ruland wrote: maybe children from other countries are taught to be realistic while american children grow up surrounded by a media saturated with glamorous celebrities and a you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be mentality.

It is a problem, but why would American kids go to school for six to eight years, to make 40 or 50k working in a lab, when they can get an IT degree in four years and start out making 60 to 70k, and go to work in flip flops and jeans?

The problem is that students are not being made aware of the long-term ramifications of the current economic trends in this country. They live in the now, as do most young people.