Black DIamond gear (protection) made in china??????

Aaron, how can you possibly compare the United States to China? You are right in that we are not perfect, no one is. But the US does not intentionaly kill innocent people. We don't imprison and torture missionaries for attempting to push their religion on our people. We don't wage extermination campaigns against people in our own nation because we don't agree with their beliefs.

If you don't like the current regime in America you are free to speak about it. If you tried to post the above about, and in China you could very well be taken outside and shot. In the US we have only to wait for the next election to affect change, but that is not the case in China

America has some bad spots in our past (our treatment of native americans), but our trangressions are nowhere near the scale of the Chinese.

I wasn't saying the US and China are the same, John. I was showing that the "China does bad stuff so we shouldn't buy from them" argument can be held against the US as well. But believe me, I think that all things considered I'll still take the US over anywhere else in the world!

I was trying to illustrate that boiling this complicated issue down to "Made in China = bad, Made in USA = good" is a total oversimplification. Each nation has its complexities and positives/negatives. All things being equal I do all I can to purchase products made in the US. But all things are rarely equal. The ethics of the firm, how they treat their workers, what they do with their money; all that should ideally play into how I make my purchasing decisions.

Trust me -- I have very serious issues with the Chinese government and how they handle themselves in our world. But I'm not going to totally boycott a company ONLY because they moved some manufacturing over there. The issue is bigger than that. I'd like to hear from BD regarding their thoughts and rationale on this.

MADE IN CHINA= MADE BY COMMUNISTS

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this fact is not over-simplified....but its importance has been watered down over the past 20 yrs.

I find it hard to believe that I am going to defend China.

Now China is far far far far far far far from perfect. But the communist argument is outdated. It is a label that you attach so that you don't have to think.

If you want the Chinese government to continue with its brutal ways, then isolate them. If you want them to change and develop human rights, then go and partake in the cultural revolution that is taking place there. That is the best thing that you can do. It is actually a good thing for the world that Black Diamond is there. They are going to import some of their ethics and morals, and for as much as I hate greedy capitalism, I have to admit, that it is the best thing for the people of China based on my observations.

On the other hand, Russia claims to be democratic (you don't believe that do you?) but in reality is atleast equal in their treatment of their people if not worse. Again, based on my observations.

Don't punish the people of China because some of their leaders are still living in the past. The best thing that you can do is give them support so that their leaders are forced into change because of their own greed.

Cpt. E wrote:MADE IN CHINA= MADE BY COMMUNISTS **** this fact is not over-simplified....but its importance has been watered down over the past 20 yrs.

Dismissing a society b/c of it's political ideology is so 1960's man...It's over! Imagine trying to govern a country as immense as China, the rules that apply here could never work there. It's a distant culture, but it's a culture that has been around far longer than ours, is far more powerful than ours, and will probably be around a lot longer than ours.

Canada is a social democracy which is close to communism on the political spectrum. Boycott Arc Teryx!!! It's made by commies!!! Boycott them b/c they have a communal philosophy, hell if the dems have their way and we get universal healthcare we should blow our brains out on the merit of hypocrasy alone b/c it's one step closer to becoming communist, and no one wants that.

Cpt. E wrote:MADE IN CHINA= MADE BY COMMUNISTS **** this fact is not over-simplified....but its importance has been watered down over the past 20 yrs.

"I was born in 49, a cold war kid in McCarthy time, stop them at the 38th parallel, blast those yellow Reds to hell. Cold war kids were hard to kill, under their desks in an air raid drill but haven't they heard we won the war, so what do we keep on fighting for?"
(Billy Joel, Lenningrad)

That sounds a lot like the whole evil empire talk of the McCarthy time, but that was 60 years ago, right? I guess Reagan did kind of revive the whole red scare with the arms race though.

I wish that were true that China were communist. The people there would be a ton better off, but there are no communist nations. There are mearly socialist nations spouting communit idiologies to gain power for the government.

In a communist society, everything is owned and run by the free community. In a socialist society, nothing is owned and run by the free community, but rather by the government. What sounds more like China? At least the USSR was up front about it (United Soviet SOCIALIST republic)... But our political talking heads decided that they were comunists for them. Probably so as to associate the local commies witht eh evil empire, eh? But what can I say? That probably 80-90% of the people here think we live in a democracy? We don't, we live in a limited republic, the founders were trying to AVOID demacracy, and that was the whole point.

Anyway, I'm sitting here trying to understand the point and how it is good or bad. Are supposed Communists bad, or are the Chinese bad and so communists guilty by word association? The only 'communists' that I can think of, or people living even close that way are the Amish. And I'll buy Amish apples or furnature any day. I don't have problem with them.

Me, I'm a libertarian, so it's not my style, but live and let live. The problem is that the socialists seem to miss the 'let live' point.

Art imitating life?? or vice versa

Firefly & Serenity (from the wiki):

In addition, it is a future where the only two surviving superpowers, the United States and China, fused to form the central federal government, called the Alliance, resulting in a fusion of the two cultures, as well. According to Whedon, nothing has changed in the future: there are more people with more advanced technology, but they still have the same problems politically, morally, and ethically

Beware the Reavers...

Tony wrote:
"That sounds a lot like the whole evil empire talk of the McCarthy time, but that was 60 years ago, right? I guess Reagan did kind of revive the whole red scare with the arms race though"

"At least the USSR was up front about it (United Soviet SOCIALIST republic)... But our political talking heads decided that they were comunists for them. Probably so as to associate the local commies witht eh evil empire, eh? But what can I say?"

Tony: i believe that Stalin and his mass-murder of millions of his own citizens pretty-much provided western civilization w/ all the ammo they needed to call them the evil-empire.

Cpt. E wrote: Tony: i believe that Stalin and his mass-murder of millions of his own citizens pretty-much provided western civilization w/ all the ammo they needed to call them the evil-empire.

Or Lennin... So now I understand. It's not communism you have a problem with, it's the guys who spout communist ideals. But they admitted that they were Socialists, by naming the soviet union as such?

"I tried to tell her about god and angels, Marx and Engels, I don't really know what for."
('Ribbons' by Sisters of Mercy) I have music on the brain today.

Pol Pot killed 3/8ths of his own population, but I suppose because it was not a western nation, we seem to ignore the atrocity of the Kahmir Rouge. Such people, almost without exception use those ideal on idealistic people for their own purposes. Orwell's 'Animal Farm' was a good parody of the difference between idiology and the real world. 'Wild Swans' (non-fiction) might be a better documentation of it in China, and is amazingly parallel to 'Animal Farm.'

Marx was one of the few 'real' communists, and I think that he was a lot better intended than Lenin or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or... But I wouldn't want to live in his system either.

I guess my point is that I don't think communism is evil or that it is a problem. But I do almost instinctively distrust anyone who talks about a real application of it. I generally find them to be power-hungry, lazy, or impractially idealistic.

"Communist Government" is an oxymoron anyway. But I do understand your point now, thanks for clarifying.

PS- I can post a great article from the papers about the financial "advice" (pressure) that the USA is trying to give the Chinese on socializing things and increasing social spending so as to promote consumer spending and decrease Chinese savings rates...
Like that's a good thing.
I saved it because it struck me as so odd. Here we are giving a socialist nation advice on how to further socialize their structures and a poor nation advice on how to decrease the financial wealth and independance of their citizens...

I guess that whole thing about Native Americans was just a democratic phase. There really is not much difference other than we took an area that was not as heavily populated.

BD gear -

yup- your right mark- and had it been heavily populated, we would have penned up and murdered every one of those 'savages', right?

i like to believe we've come a long way since the 18th century.

like it or not- there is a difference between western man and those that rule by the barrel of a gun.

what do you stand for?

Kartch wrote:BD gear - approved by Che.

I'm still trying to figure out if this means you are now pro- or anti- Black Diamond....

Really doesn't mean much. I'm reading Che's biogrophy right now. I guess you could say I have Che on the mind.

However now that I've thought about a real response I would have to say that I think the manufacturing and globalization in China has probably done more to improve human rights and quality of life in China than anything else since the end of WWII. If BD/K2/Marker/Marmot or any other companies want to manufacture/assemble products there then good for them. Six sigma is still six sigma, even in China.

What a great topic for discussion.
I emailed BD a few months ago about this very topic and their spokesman replied that BD's manufacturing in China is not out sourcing per se, as they will be BD owned operations, etc. Tell that to the BD employess in SLC.
If the market for BD cams is growing, then all that growth comes without any job growth in the US.
It seems that small companies like BD are shamlessly adopting the blood sucking morailty of wal mart and their legion, who seem blind to the connection between community and commerce.
Next time you read BD proganda on their website about environment and people, know that they have voted with their feet and their money, and chosen to send manufacturing to the country that cares nothing about either.

(text of emails to follow, with order reversed for continuity:)

Hi,
Since 1970, I have been a loyal used of Chouinard and now BD gear. I know you manufacture in SLC, UT. My question, are you now or do you plan to move climbing protection manufacturing to China?
Thanks,
Gahan Haskins

Hi Gahan,
Thanks for your question.
For the most part we have been manufacturing and/or assembling products at various locales around the world for some time know including China and Taiwan. This would also include some styles of carabiners and personal protection equipment. We also still do quite a bit of this production here in SLC as well.
More info here:
bdel.com/about/press.php#06…
Best Regards,
Jeff Maudlin
BDEL

Hi Jeff,
Would I be able to find out exactly what gear is manufactured in Salt Lake City?
Are C4, and C3's made in the USA? Stoppers, Hexes?
Thanks,
Gahan Haskins

Not very easily. We're doing (or planning on doing), many of the same styles both here and abroad. For the most part Stoppers, Hexes are still done (only) here but that is due to change. C3's the same. For C4s they are being done in both locales right now.

Note: There will ALWAYS be a very substantial amount of manufacturing done in SLC And the reason we're moving some product to China is not just for cost reasons - it's also to free up resources. It's also important to note that this is a BLACK DIAMOND manufacturing facility that happens to be in China - not just us outsourcing our gear.

Jeff

Jeff Maudlin (jeffm@bdel.com)
blackdiamondequipment.com

Black Diamond Retail, Inc. (801) 278-5533 (phone)
2084 East 3900 South (801) 278-5544 (fax)
Salt Lake City, Utah 84124

Run for the hills! It's the COMMUNISTS! We've got to protect our Precious Bodily Fluids! What is this, 1964? Government propaganda goes both ways, folks.

There are plenty of better reasons to be anti-China than it's ostensibly communist government.

I do not think this is anything new. I am about 99% positive that my first set of C4's bought right after they were released said:

Made in China

What a bunch of needless sharpening of pitchforks.

Tea wrote:What a bunch of needless sharpening of pitchforks.

Amen

'Amen' is not allowed in China.
but it is in Taiwan..........i wonder if BD understands the difference?