Posting routes you haven't climbed

Anthony Stout wrote: ..........Forming an opinion about a grade is only that anyways, an opinion. To claim that there are any absolutes in grades is bunk (it's all opinion and depends on the strengths/ weakness of the climber).

I disagree with your comment that there are no absolutes in grades.

IMHO there are absolutes in grades for routes. That is why we have grades. Now, for sure, there is some margin of error in that grade (like, perhaps two standard errors of the mean, for example [when we think of a grade]). The error bars undoubtedly shift, depending on the specifics of the climb. For instance, a face climb with similar sized crimpers throughout the climb (evenly spaced) will have narrower bars than one that requires side pulls, mantles, heal-hooking, etc. or perhaps one where the holds vary in size and are unevenly spaced.

There will always be strong climbers and weaker climbers, and each climber may have specific strengths that make certain types of climbs easier for them than someone with the same general conditioning but lacking that specific strength (in technique).

Grades are there to let the climber know the general difficulty of the climb so that one does not get in over their head; trouble can come from being in over your head. This probably belongs in a new thread!

i agree guidebooks suck usually anyways ( Red Rock Canyon: A Climbing Guide
by Roxanna Brock & Jared McMillen, which has Fu_ked me more than it has helped). i check MP 99.9% of the time before i go out so i can get feed back from people who have really done routes.

OK David, ya got me there. You are correct, grades are there for a reason. Perhaps I should have worded it differently describing a margin of error based on opinion/strengths rather than using the word absolute (as you have). And yes, this likely belongs in another thread :)

I didn't see any resolution to this issue so I'll add my opinion to the stack.

Posting routes from a guidebook without personal experience is not only lame, its a copyright violation pure and simple. Guidebook authors put a lot of work into documenting and writing about climbs for all of our benifit. Lifting their data and reproducing it where everyone has access to it without compensating the author or even citing them is just plain theft. It matters not if you are re-writing their prose or not. It is still their basic data being re-produced.

Additionally, the quality of the site is diminished if all we get are second-hand experiences. The reason this site was so powerful in the beginning was because it gave an additional source for the info. Many posters also gave excellent photo-topos that far surpassed the guidebook drawings. I don't see any value in posting routes you haven't done, especially if the data is available elsewhere. If you want to know about a route that isn't here but is in the guidebook, well then pony up and buy the guidebook.

I don't think you need to be so strict as to say that the poster must have led the climb or even lead every pitch of the climb. This isn't like FA credit. But you need to have climbed the route. Think of yourself as a reporter. The routes I posted I brought along a notepad and even took notes so I made sure I got it right.

Chris Zeller wrote:I don't think you need to be so strict as to say that the poster must have led the climb or even lead every pitch of the climb. This isn't like FA credit. But you need to have climbed the route. Think of yourself as a reporter. The routes I posted I brought along a notepad and even took notes so I made sure I got it right.

Right on Chris. Perhaps this may be true for most sport routes, TR etc. However re trad routes, unless one is taking explicit notes as a second, I don't see how a climber not pulling gear can properly evaluate critical beta on a route with regards to placement and rack required. Trad route beta is most valuable when a skilled tradman (or woman) shares that experience as seen from the sharp-end. Would you start up a multi-p trad climb with the beta detailed from someone who only TR'd the route...? (:

but I guess some people would...

I think the point that some experience with a route is still more valuable than no experience or "book" experience is well taken. To post about a trad route does not require that I lead every pitch does it? That would be a lot of leading in say a 30 pitch route. Isn't the beta that can be provided about approach, descent, retreats, water availability, bivvy sites, weather, environment and so much more still of some value? I depend on my second as much as he or she depends on me. Their experience on the climb is no less valuable because they are not leading the pitch. It is just from a different point of view. Does anyone go out on a multi pitch climb, and not talk to their second; discuss options, route, possibilities, failures and outcomes?
I say if you have experience with the route, and that means having climbed it in some manner, and you have information to share, then share it.

Seems to me that experience can come from more than just climbing the route. If she lives across the street from a crag, your 80 year old grandmother who has never put shoes on might have useful information. I personally would want to know anything she wanted to post.

However, if that same grandmother just stole guidebook info, then that's lame.

Beta from anyone needs to be taken with a grain of salt. That includes but is not limited to the following

Internet spray,

(by the way that is mostly what this site is, fun, but
just a bunch of internet spraying folks. I am one of them)

guidebooks,

Just one mans or womens, opinion or interpretation.This is just a road map of info, You still have to drive,step on the gas or brake, turn left or right,and make real decisions in the field based on what you SEE. This is key piece of information WHAT DO YOU SEE! One of the biggest route finding mistakes that is made in the mountains is
getting caught up in beta or descriptions, IE, Billy at campfire just did this route last week and he said go left at the tree. You will get so caught up looking for the tree that you will fail to see the big picture. In order to develop good route finding skills you need to use your eyes sometimes and use common sense. This is way more valuable than reading through 50 different comments and opinions on a route, pitch, move, rack or whatever.

A picture is worth a thousand words, post pics and let other people use there eyes and interpret it.

local climbers,

Danger Danger, Are they sandbagging, maybe not, maybe they just climb harder than you , it is all relative. Maybe they don't climb as hard as you and told you to double up on a rack. Maybe they have poor route finding skills and that is why they got lost, maybe they followed some one elses bad beta and they are passing it along.

local shops,

Same folks at the shop as above. Or maybe it is REI, do you really want climbing beta from an REI employee, the only beta I would accept here is driving directions to the parking lot and maybe some approach beta.

All you beta seekers that complain that you got a bad description from someone who did not climb the route, I blame you. You still had to go out there and see for yourself what you were up against and make your own decisions, You probablly got spanked because you were stuck in the beta and unwilling to change your mind in a field decision.

Too many folks are taking away from the adventure by putting up too much info in a post, Just tell me were the route is and how to get there if it is worth doing, a picture would be fine at best.

People who need a play by play of the route should stay in the gym, that is why the colored tape is there folks. All the beta you need at your fingertips on every move. Not to mention the bonus beta you get at a gym from the dude you don't even know with his shirt off yelling gastone left, now flag right leg, blah blah blah.

Come on folks this site is fine, do your homework and be prepared, if you really want to be a master in the mountains it takes mountain sense and good route finding skills,

So to develop these skills quit relying on peoples posts to make your day more easier and try and leave some adventure to be discovered in the field.

my 2 cents, the site is fine the way it is.

I guess a question I have asked myself, in the past few years since the climbingxxx.com sites consolidated into mp.com, is it really worth it to participate with all these site topics over the internet?

I thought it has been & will continue to be a worthwhile site. I check some beta, but I have really yet to take a full description on a climb. I like to get out and figure it out on my own, then compare notes & share photos within the various descriptions.

For the most part, mp.com is a fun & intellectual site, and I'm real glad it's not made up of a bunch of peak baggers.

Kirra wrote: Right on Chris. Perhaps this may be true for most sport routes, TR etc. However re trad routes, unless one is taking explicit notes as a second, I don't see how a climber not pulling gear can properly evaluate critical beta on a route with regards to placement and rack required. Trad route beta is most valuable when a skilled tradman (or woman) shares that experience as seen from the sharp-end. Would you start up a multi-p trad climb with the beta detailed from someone who only TR'd the route...? (: but I guess some people would...

Humm, I disagree. I lead a lot of gear routes but in all honesty, the site probably gets a better description of the route when my partner posts the info. Face it, some people are just better at accurately describing routes than others. I've known people that can remember every move, piece of gear and blade of grass at the base from 20 years ago. It's impressive and I'd trust their beta any day regardless of whether they actually were on the "sharp-end" when they climbed the route.

Besides, John Bradford had a really good point. What if you're swinging leads. Could be two pitches or thirty.... is it reasonable to suggest that I couldn't state details about the route because I didn't lead all the pitches? That's just silly.

~Susan

Skiclimber, Amen Brother!!!!
I'm just an old fart that doesn't do much climbing anymore, but the one good thing that has come from all of these musings is that even though I don't climb much anymore, my former climbing ability is seeming to increase year by year. Guess we were all just blind sandbaggers, couldn't tell what we were doing through 70's haze! (did most of my climbing in Eldo, Boulder Canyon and Taylor Canyon in Gunnison). I considered myself a 5.8 leader and 5.9 follower, now on some climbs I was a 5.9+ leader and a 5.11b follower, boy do I feel proud!

Susan,

Well said. I agree that you don't have to lead a route or pitch to give an excellent description. You just have to have climbed it.

Scott,
There were many different areas across the country that started using the YDS back in the day. I think that when all of these areas eventually got "calibrated" to create a national average of what say 5.9 is, it became obvious that some folks were "blind sandbaggers".

Maybe it's time to just sit back and accept that you were a badass? :)

Chris, I think the closest thing to resolution was the oft-stated, "Post only routes that you have some experience with." That works for me, but thanks for bringing this thread back to life (I had altogether missed it the first go around!)

Adding my two cents, I only submit routes that I have climbed and have finished (however I may have struggled at one point or another). I agree with those who have said that even for "classics" that are missing from MP, we should be patient and wait for someone who has done the route to post. I guess the exception is for those climbs that have only seen a few ascents and aren't likely to see any repeats anytime soon. For although from time to time I use the descriptions on MP to look for new routes to try, I also enjoy reading descriptions of routes around the country, from places I've never been. Maybe it's a little vicarious climbing, no different from reading an article in one of the climbing mags about some far away destination. It's also fun to read descriptions about climbs I know I'll never be able to do. So for these reasons as well, I appreciate a good route description.

That said, rickd, thanks for the post - the example you gave is pathetic. I think one of the admins needs to contact that person and remove the route posting. skiclimber, I hope you wouldn't argue that there's nothing wrong with THAT description!

Thanks Brad,
I didn't really feel like a badass owing to the fact that I was hanging out with people like Tom Pulaski, John Pearson, Scotty Gilbert, John Rosholt, Jimmy Newberry, Bob Dickerson, Phil Broscovak, and Jim Nigro....who were/are all badasses! You could characterize me as the eternal "dull" end of the rope.

I love 000 description of Trench Warfare. For you guys to get bent on it is a waste of time.

Great photo, ok 2-4" crack, TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH.

If you need beta from this site to sack up to a route like Trench Warfare, then you are probably in over your head and not ready for a route like that anyway.

Anyone who is sacking up for a pitch like this is doing there homework and it is probably not here. Anyone who is sending that proud display of a crack is not going to rely on a play by play beta spraying forum like mountain project.

Great post 000, and great photo as well. Way to leave some adventure in it for the onsight attempts. Don't worry about what the people on here think, Your post is much better than the average post of someone who has a route so dialed they can't wait to let you know how rad they are.

made up example
-clip blue tcu, if you don't have it a blue alien will work.
-move up and left to the gastone and reverse press mantle with your right hand.
-clip the fixed pin from this stance, back it up with a number 4 stopper
-chalk now and shake out,
PUKE HERE,
Fart There,
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

reminds me of the people that need talking gps in there cars, Turn Left now , stop here , approaching destination.

skiclimber wrote:If you need beta from this site to sack up to a route like Trench Warfare, then you are probably in over your head and not ready for a route like that anyway. Anyone who is sacking up for a pitch like this is doing there homework and it is probably not here.

Uh, I always thought MP's greatest asset was the ability to share information and ideas. So what's the point of posting a route or an area if you're not really posting anything? You know, simple things. Like where it is. For example, I found Mr./Ms. ooo's "Getting There" post for Lamb's Canyon of dubious utility: "I-80 east from SLC". If you're worried about a "pure" onsight, shut off your computer and start wandering around on I-80. Oh yeah, make sure you're east of SLC.

Anonymous Coward.... err.. I mean skiclimber,

Why don't you just refrain from reading the route desctiptions if you want more adventure? Or better yet, climb something new.

Personally, I love seeing quality descriptions.

Now it looks like oooo deleted Trench Warfare, by the way. WTF?

I am not reading route descriptions, It is the last thing I read,

I do however get my rocks off by reading these threads and entertaining myself within the climbing community that I love so much, while I am sitting here drinking my coffee in the rain that keeps shutting August down.

I will look on this site to find the occasional routes whereabouts or to maybe find out what it is that I climbed since I don't always climb with a guide book and a printed out page of spray. More times than not I use this site to see what a route was that I either climbed and or saw in the field.

I don't ever listen to or use comments on a route unless I know the person, have climbed with the person or absolutly trust the person, and those times are pretty rare that I even get that beta. I will not put all my faith in the comments that are in a route description on this site. If you do you are rolling the dice, and then to come back here and complain about it means you used bad judgment, bad mountain sense, and or bad route finding skills. I for the most part don't ever read the comments, and don't care what they say. I do like to know if I did an FA or not, or if what I saw is still waiting for a send. This way I know there are no comments to distract me from the task at hand.

skiclimber wrote:I don't ever listen to or use comments on a route unless I know the person, have climbed with the person or absolutly trust the person, and those times are pretty rare that I even get that beta. I will not put all my faith in the comments that are in a route description on this site. If you do you are rolling the dice, and then to come back here and complain about it means you used bad judgment, bad mountain sense, and or bad route finding skills. I for the most part don't ever read the comments, and don't care what they say. I do like to know if I did an FA or not, or if what I saw is still waiting for a send. This way I know there are no comments to distract me from the task at hand.

Good points again skiclimber. Isn't it amazing how many people argue or troll around and knit-pick words or bootie-kiss on forums. Personally, I would rather review beta about gear choices on a trad route from a traddie than a grannie. But hey, like I said -- some people would ~(:

There are no REAL point keepers with climbing -- except on these forums..haha. To me, climbing is all about making your own choices and helping each other out. The winning or loosing is a personal exp as learned from the choices made -- all the fun part of the experience of climbing. So -- think twice next time ya'll want to offer up yer own comando-facto-gestapo-control and spoil the exploring experience for others

Either you have fun climbing and don't hurt yourself in the process - or you don't and then probably (hopefully) learn from it. Does anyone remember (before drinkin' age) when we really didn't give a shit about judging and arguing about people's opinions..? We just listened, said 'cool', and probably did it our own way anyway. ~ haha ~ 'Grown-ups' have it all wrong ~ spray-on...!