Hasty, extemporaneous, and passionate bitchin about the place I love...

So, I've been trying to get out and do more "oddball" routes in the Wasatch. I am kind of proud about being up to date on what's happening up in the canyons. I try to get out alot and lately, I am focusing on doing routes I haven't done yet (i.e. "oddball"). Particularly, I've started exploring the East Gate area...

Warning: the following is certainly a hasty and impulsive response to my experience so far. I love the Wasatch and I have very BIG and passionate ideas!!! The following is not a summation of my ethics or hopes, just a quick bitch fest.

What the frick is up with the East Gate? It looks and climbs like one of the best walls in LCC and yet I find it so frustrating...
Here's why:
1) overgrown and "unestablished"
2) wacky bolting and damn hard...approaching unnecessarily dangerous
3) did I say f***ed up bolting?
4) let me say it one more time...messed up bolting with scary and dangerous runouts...mostly 5.11 ish climbing...

I understand "impeccable" style. I appreciate it. I sometimes seek it out. I respect it.

But...since exploring this area I can't help but say "what the f*** old guys?"

Here is one of the possible best areas in LCC (i.e. fairly short approach, high quantity of lines, high quality lines and rock, great belay trees/area, afternoon shade, etc.) and IMO totally inaccessible for the majority of climbers in the area due to weird ass dangerous bolting, poor topo (no offense intended Ruckman's), really difficult established lines, and overgrown!!!

I HAVE HUGE HOPES AND PLANS FOR THIS AREA...I WANT TO SPEARHEAD A RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF THIS FINE WALL (please do not read this last statement as "re-bolt").

I PLAN ON DOING THIS THE RIGHT WAY AND WILL NOT DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR UNETHICAL UNTIL THOROUGHLY DISCUSSING IT WITH THE COMMUNITY...
after reading that it sounds like I will do something illegal or unethical...that's not the case either...don't fret...

basically...I have been cursing the old guys lately...not only were they extremely bold and talented...but also trippin'

IMO of course...

anybody else?

whew...now that i've caught a breadth and re-read my post...

this is starting to sound a bit like Boulder Area compared to SLC area...

both have a ton of climbing history...
a ton of climbing...
a ton of climbers...
etc.

Boulder Area has a huge support network (i.e., established trails, proper signage, up-to-date hardware, clear and developed parking, concise and posted policies and rules, etc.) and yet it still has R and X routes...

SLC might have a tad more history...definitely quicker access to more climbing...and yet...it often feels like there is no organized Friends of the Wasatch or some such group to "manage" this gem!
Poor trails!
Yes, there are over 1000 routes but only a handful get climbed!
Crappy parking (except maybe the Gate)!
Still has tons of old ass hardware...
Very few "trail work" or "community work" days
Only 1 or 2 "classroom" areas (i.e. take a group of kids there)
etc.

Read the description for Tingey's as an example. After more than 20 years...the route still isn't necessarily "established"

What's the haps?

besides the obvious land ownership, litigation, and "traditional" hard man ethics stuff?

So you want to change it to your vision of what it "should" be? You like it, but you want to bring more climbers there by making it more friendly?

Since you asked for comments:
1)You should enjoy the fact that you have an area that you can go that is free from the masses, while still driving 15 minutes away from a valley of 2 million people.
2)It is au natural. Why do you want to sanitize it? I agree that climbing in LCC can be not as asthetic with the occasional bush you have to climb over, sand and dirt on ledges, etc. But to clean it up? I don't know, maybe you are on to something. But why not just enjoy the nature of the canyon as it is? It's the mountains after all.

JJG...thanks for not verbally and electronically "beheading" me...I appreciate your tone.

I am about half way through the similar thread on UtahClimber (which maybe I should frequent more)...

Like I said...hasty, emotional, etc.

I am still bleeding from said au natural mtn. scenery...

I like it...
I'll go again...

Your points are awesome...I forgot that this area IS only 15 minutes from my front door! AND I've never seen anyone else there...

I guess I just have an inkling to share it...not hoard it...I expect and even desire a much more difficult time to get away from all my brothers and sisters...

the way I see it...
the majority of all the established routes in LCC should be even more accessible...
I mean...
even my girl of 5 years who is intermediate/expert climber can't really appreciate this area...

there is still plenty of solitude up there...
i don't think this should be one of 'em...

but don't fret...ima not gonna do anything but keep climbing...
cheers :)

SLC definitely has quicker access to more climbing? And a tad more history?

Not trying to get into a SLC versus Boulder thing at all, you guys got it made in Utah, no doubt about it. But I thought that was an interesting statement, nonetheless. We have a MUCH smaller town with Eldo, Boulder Canyon and Flagstaff really fu*king(less than 5-10 min.) close to Broadway. And we got Layton Kor, but you got Jeff Lowe(my idol). But in Climbing Mag, they had to choose between Colorado climbers and Californians as the coolest, and Utah won. So maybe you do have something there.

P.S.- R and X route can be pretty damned fun dude. Maybe just replace old bolts with new ones, but not add. And yeah, enjoy the solitude sometimes.

Ha, I think what you are frustrated about is that you found something that you love, and can't get enough of, and for some reason there aren't many others who want to take advantage of something you think is so great. So part of you is like, "WTF?"

It is probably kind of like having a hot girlfriend (in your eyes) and noticing that other guys don't seem attracted to her. You are glad that guys aren't throwing themselves at her and molesting her, but you would like others to look at you and be like, "right on dude, you are hitting that!" It is good to know that other people find your wife/girlfriend attractive.

I feel the same way about the San Rafael Swell. I love it on such a deep level. But I have a hard time finding people who want to climb and explore there. What is wrong with people was my first reaction, but then I realized just how lucky I actually am. I can explore, and climb, and have adventures, and no one else is around. It is like the good old days before Moab exploded. I go to a place and want others to like it too, but I don't want it to turn into Moab. So instead, I try to sieze the day, and remind myself that it is other people's loss and my gain, so be happy.

Atleast, I think that is part of what is frustrating you... or not!

I have to agree with the strange bolting but that's because the majority of those routes were done groundup. It makes you respect the thin face skills of guys like Drew Bedford.

That said, I'd love to hear what you're thinking.

JJG...tenesmus...Hank...

thanks so much!
JJG...you hit it right on the heaad with the girlfriend analogy...
i've got to add that the thing i love most about her drives me fricking nuts a good deal of the time too! but ima pretty sure most guys think she's got it going on (you are right, that does feel good:)

Hank...you're right too...I guess technically the whole Boulder and Eldo and whatnot areas are technically smaller than the SLC area but...come on...give me a little bit...i mean...i'm not making things up about nicely groomed trails, designated parking, bike pathways!!!, etc. in support of climbing and other outdoor pursuits...right?

was I in another Colorado area? :)

both got history
both got great climbing
both got it going on
screw climbing mag (although I love reading it too)

i'm not holding anything up to SLC over Eldo/vicinity

i'm simply trying to say that despite a rich climbing history, 2 million and growing only 10 to 30 minutes away, the Lowes, the Ruckmans, the Smoots, several climbing guides, 2000+ routes, etc.
SLC seems like it doesn't really support climbing (i.e. where's the safe parking? why are there 4 different trails to the Dihedrals area? why haven't i heard about any garbage or trail projects in my 6 years here? why are there still debates about which is the proper line on Tingey's which has been around for decades? etc.)

tenesmus...give me a ring or a holler...i definitely want to get out wit you...

my plan really is pretty simple...
a) get involved with whatever official organization exists
b) keep on picking up trash when i go climbing
c) keep on using the most "treaded" trail when i go to popular areas
d) keep on climbing
e) find a ropegun to lead up some of those routes so i can ween into the area
f) try to get some health insurance and a heavier belayer

peace

Hmmm, seems like most of those routes work out pretty well to me, so it would be nice to hear some specific grievances. The base gully has always had issues, but we can't do an official trail day as the landowner doesn't even acknowledge our existence. This affords them the ultimate in liability protection, so go ahead and give the East Gate some love, talk to Mike White about bad anchors, and come to the SLCA party, Thursday, at the Front. I'll introduce you to Drew.

see ya thurs. jk...

love it is!

THE MORE YOU PEOPLE MENTION THE PLACES YOU LOVE ON THE INTERNET THE MORE CROWDED THEY WILL GET

seems kinda simple doesn't it??????????

I LOVE BEN & JERRY'S!!!

See, Fat Bastard? no-one cares, just because I post my interest on the interne.. Oh, UH OH!! - Quick! Hide the Cherry Garcia -- IT'S A STAMPEDE!!!! ARRRRRGGH...

John J. Glime wrote:So you want to change it to your vision of what it "should" be? You like it, but you want to bring more climbers there by making it more friendly? Since you asked for comments: 1)You should enjoy the fact that you have an area that you can go that is free from the masses, while still driving 15 minutes away from a valley of 2 million people. 2)It is au natural. Why do you want to sanitize it? I agree that climbing in LCC can be not as asthetic with the occasional bush you have to climb over, sand and dirt on ledges, etc. But to clean it up? I don't know, maybe you are on to something. But why not just enjoy the nature of the canyon as it is? It's the mountains after all.

I was up at the S-Curves today, and I had the same thoughts as Glen. Sorry to disagree with you, John, but you are mistaken. Boulder does have the attributes that Glen mentioned, and none of that attention to thoughtful planning has caused any of the problems that you propose. You can climb beautiful sport routes all day long in the Flatirons and sections of Boulder Canyon and never see another party. The trails are well kept, although they look far more natural than the construction zones in LCC and BCC. For instance, there is nothing au natural about the crunchy aggregate that was spread all over the trail leading up to the S-Curve routes, It is a total pain in the ass, and it makes the trail look like a patio in someone's backyard.

Anyway, Glen's point is valid, and this area could be amazing if we all took a more thoughtful, pro-active approach to how we manage these areas. And before you tell me to go back to Boulder, I have already seriously considered it. The problem is that I think this area has amazing potential.

Here's the thing. Not all change is bad. In fact shaking things up a little might be a very good thing for this area. Did you notice the new high-tech road going in just beyond the BCC/Wasatch Blvd. parking lot? If locals don't take stock in organizations like the Access Fund, we'll start seeing trophy home development going into places like Ferguson Canyon. Some Californian with too much money and no respect for the environment will build a home right in the middle of it.

Boulder, whether you can bring yourself to admit it or not, is a model for how climbing communities can preserve and enhance their resources. Not looking to places like that as examples is just like standing in traffic with your eyes closed.

On a more positive note, I need to give serious props to Jeff Pederson. His new gym is amazing, I would go as far as to say that it is the nicest gym that I've ever seen, and I have climbed in many. Betsy and I can't wait to join.

Uh... I love Boulder.

And I don't care if people disagree with me, I was just asking questions and giving my point of view.

John,
I reread your first post (after having a few days to think about all this stuff and...)

Two replies:
a) yur right, i should just check myself and appreciate the solitude and beauty the way it is...

b) no, i don't want to change it to my "vision" (although you might like that after i told you about the costumes:), i would like to see "it" changed to a better, collaborative, sustainable, blah blah blah vision... (i.e. multiple people sit down/discuss, multiple people go out there and climb and "pretend" it was different, multiple people work on it, etc.)

I'm not sure but I think the case is...
climbing boomed fast due to numerous variables (baby boomers, drugs, fewer wars, increase recreation time, increase funds, etc.)
while it was booming here, bedford, ruckmans, bitters, wheeler, olsen, garrett, etc...all 'em...got out there and set the canyon on fire! problem is...they didn't really stop to think how popular the whole thing would become...and the whole difference in mortality we have today (that might be the wrong term but...i don't want to push it in climbing that far...)

i'm not sure...

i am passionate...

see ya thurs. night!

oldfattradguy...

i don't mind sharing this place...

i'll keep certain other areas to myself...like your wife!

(ummm...i hope you don't really take offense to that--i just thought it was funny...i giggled...i like)

nah...my whole thing is spreading the love not hoarding it...

uh.....I love Salt Lake City and I don't care if people disagree with me as well. I understand where the threads motivations lie. But damned if a bunch of scary old school routes in Little Cottonwood Canyon doesn't sound just friggin GREAT! At least to me......and with almost no crowds, paradise bro!!!!!!!!

Wow, after reading your post I got to thinking... I'm gonna do the same to the Black Canyon over here in CO. They sound so similar, lack of trails, overgrown, bushes on the routes, dangerous bolting of routes, hard routes, lack of suitable climbs to bring lots of people to. Yet, so much rock and hella potential for lots of well bolted "fun" routes that everyone could enjoy- instead of just a lot of hard, obscure, dangerous routes for elitists who prepare prior to heading out. That's it, I spearheading a "re-establishing" of routes/ethics for the Black Canyon and I don't care what anyone else thinks... Pause, NOT!

Beagle...

umm...listen bro'...you must be some kinda climbing GOD to drop names of places like the Black...

that is only for Neteru living kings! (i.e. read--mere mortals like myself can't even fathom!)

whateves...

the point is! this place/places ima talking about are right here in the city...literally...i could run to the areas in less than 30 min...you haven't even gotten out of the smog in 30 min!

AND

im definitely not saying let's redo the old ethics and take down the hard scary routes that i can't do...
no...
im saying...rethink our "unwritten" ethics to make room for more people...since there are so many more now than then...

whateves...

go friggin bolt moderate easy routes in the Black for all I care...we know what will happen...

"go friggin bolt moderate easy routes in the Black for all I care...we know what will happen..."

The same thing that will happen if you retrobolt any hard scary routes in LCC without the support of the FA team.

On the other hand, I agree that having one, reasonably maintained trail to an area is a good call.

There are a lot of highly volatile issues being interwoven in this thread.

Brad Brandewie wrote: There are a lot of highly volatile issues being interwoven in this thread.

I agree that there are several different issues being interwoven into this thread, although I wouldn't necessarily consider them to be volatile.

Regardless of how much any climber wants his or her backyard to remain the same, outside influences will eventually interpose. We have to create and cultivate working relationships with the powers that be, or things will eventually work against us.

I have seen two examples of this since I arrived in SLC less than three years ago. The first involved the Tyrolean Traverse in BCC, and the second involved the Delicate Arch incident, which I still maintain was an accident waiting to happen. There was no communication between climbers and the ranger service in BCC, and we all know what the rangers in Moab think of climbers in general. If it hadn't been Dean, some other climber would eventually have pushed the wrong button down there. As for the TT in BCC, teenagers dying on illegal apparatus fixed by climbers does nothing to bolster respect for our judgment - especially when we can't even work together on such issues.

When I think about the reasons why Boulder is so successful, Steve Muehlhauser immediately comes to mind as a key player. Not only is he an outstanding keeper of Eldorado Canyon, but also a veteran climber. There seems to be a mutual respect and a high level of cooperation between him and the local climbing community, which has resulted in some obvious benefits for all climbers.

I dare anyone to go climb routes like The Naked Edge, Doub-Griffith, Yellow Spur, or Jules Verne and tell me with a straight face that you didn't feel out in nature or that the routes where sterilized or watered down. Management hasn't hurt Eldo at all. Communication, cooperation, and sound management is probably the reason that the increasing level of climbing popularity hasn't reduced our privileges there. Through organizations like A.C.E., climbers not only learn the rules for preserving access, they are allowed an active role in developing them.

The simple fact of life is that there is only so much real estate to go around, so we had better get used to learning how to work together in a concerted effort to manage it in a way that benefits us and future climbers.