The Banged-in-Angle myth

For the last couple of years I have been replacing old anchors in the Moab area. I am now a part of the Arches Task Force, whose "Task" is to replace older, unsightly anchors with stronger, more camoflaged anchors in the Park. Through all this I have gotten pretty familiar with the banged in angle. What I'm finding is that an angle can make the "ringing" sound we like to hear from pitons but not be in the wall well. What happens, it appears, is that the piton adheres to the wall with a mixture of rust and sand. This makes sense as pitons are not treated for rust resistance. So, the sand, water (pourous rock), and salt (it was under seawater) break down the steel in a way that makes it wedged into the wall, but not wedged with anything close to a UIAA level of strength. You think its in their good, but one yank with the funkenss device and out it comes. Some of them, admittedly, hold on for a few yanks, but the scariest thing about angles is that the ones that yank easily make the ringing sound and seem just as solid prior to popping as the stronger ones.

I understand where the wish to use pitons comes from... its tradition. For most early desert ascents, that was the only option. It also made sense then as no one ever thought large numbers of people would be doing the climbs, so whacking pins in and whacking them out on the same ascent saved money and didn't really hurt anything. We now live in a world where many people climb the routes, so the constant placing and removing of the pins wears out the rock real fast. The best use of the resource is to place what will last longest and thus do the least damage... that happens to be the safest as well... its a modern bolt.

I know that "Dude, banged in angles are bomber" is often an accepted arguement. However, I would like to hear someone who believes in the banged-in-angle defend a few points with some science or a rational explanation... I mean, if you drill the hole, why not put in the most solid peace. SO, here are the points:
1. Angles are tapered so they go in and come out... You dont neccessarily want an anchor to come out.
2. ANgles are, for the most part, made from untreated steel.
3. Angles are shaped in such a way that their edges break down the rock when they flex much faster than a cylindrical bolt.
4. Angles are not cheap.

I'm trying to upload a photo here of a few angles... note the rust and sand mix.

Sam, What is your opinion on epoxied-in, drilled angles?

A glued-in angle is gonne be stronger than a banged in angle, but its still a weaker anchor to begin with than a glued-in bolt. If you are gonna go to all the trouble to glue, glue a SS bolt.
Thats my opinion.
In some cases, like Entrada, I am not using glue ins becasue the bolts existence will so outlive the rock that it is in... 50 years from now you will have this bolt sticking out of the wall with a bunch of glue and sand wrapped around it cus the wall will have eroded away. In wingate, I dont think this is as much of a problem. The glu ins I have placed in Navajo also have a bit of glue, mixed with sand, smeared around the placement so as to add some weather resistance.

Thanks Sam!

Hey Sam I am curious...does the glue permeate into the soft rock, or is it merely bonding the surface layer? have always wondered that..in soft sandstone.

So far...what routes have you re-equipped? Just curious.

Thanks for your work!

Here's my simple explanation for why drilled angles became standard. Back in the 70's the standard alternative was a 1/4" bolt, and they are worthless in sandstone. Don't you agree? However a modern full-length 1/2" bolt is superior to an angle in any rock, I don't think anyone would argue with that. What about 3/8"? I dunno, I am not a bolting expert. But I argue that the only advantage an angle has over a bolt is a larger diameter (over a 1/4" bolt).

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote: I know that "Dude, banged in angles are bomber" is often an accepted arguement. However, I would like to hear someone who believes in the banged-in-angle defend a few points with some science or a rational explanation...

Piton Ron is goin' to be bummed....

I've seen snapped ones in Zion. SMC vintage. Rusted through right were the wear points were when they were tapped into their finely sculpted hole. Spaceshot. Time bombs.

Some folks (uhh...see above) are still placing drilled angles. You might post this topic up on the supertaco, see if you get a bite...

Tea, so far we have replaced rappel anchors on Owl Rock, Bullwinkel, Zenyatta Entrada, Sheep Rock, and a few of the free climbs in Park Avenue. Still to come are the Gossips and a few other single pitch routes.
Beyond Arches, we have rerigged a number of anchors...not neccesarily removing all bolts and replacing them with newer, but sometimes incorporating old bolts with new ones. This has been done on the Titan (F.o.F.), Echo (Phantom Spirit), Kingfisher (Co. Arete.. I dont believe the other team removed stuff as I thought they would), new chains on Castleton, Kyles Tower, a few things at the ICe Cream Parlor, a few on Potash... thats what I can think of off the top of my head.
It would be nice if most anchors were replaced with steel chain instead of tat... land managers really hate the tat (as do non-climbers).

Thanks for your efforts and the information.

I thought pins were used in sandstone, because sandstone is harder on the surface (utilizing the characteristics of a drilled pin). Comparing this to something like granite where the rock is harder internally, thus utilizing the characteristic of a bolt.

Is this wrong?

Greg, that may be the logic... I dont know. What I do know is that the logic you question is flawed. Once the surface is broken, you have made a weakness that will be increased in size. The best option is to put the holding-point as far away from the shear point as possible... a 20 inch bolt would be best!

Thanks for updating the anchors and looking at new alternatives to angles.

Linking this thread to supertopo would be great as it would draw in some people who have had many years of placing angles in standstone and open the discussion up.

I'm guilty. I placed several anchors in the desert years ago( starting in the early 80's)and frequently placed 2 pins: 1 eye up, 1 down. Later I put 1 pin(eye down)and 1 bolt, with a little silicone caulk to keep water out, which we thought was really slick. (Full disclosure: I also hauled up river rocks and tied them off in cracks; figuring second ascenders would be better equipped, if ever repeated.) I did it mostly because the price of pins was cheaper than bolts back then. I also usually left just a runner figuring that anybody would obviously replace it, but mostly since I judged it to be less impact on soft rock, and it was cheap. BTW, I never allow myself to get high enough to weight desert pins (or bolts) except in shear, having lifted out old pins while "checking" them a few times (in many types of stone). Upon reflection, only long SS bolts ought to go in porous stone nowadays.

Rob, if we are coming clean, then I have to admit a past with a couple of banged in angles (Tombstone, RIP) in it as well. I say we all have moved beyond the statute of limitations... but we should not step over the line again.

Sam, what type and sizes of bolts are you using? Who's footin' the bill? Is there a fund we can pitch into to help cover the costs?Thanks for all the effort I know this must take!

Sam,
I see a lot of crap bolts in the desert and a lot of pins that seem pretty solid. I would agree that a solid bolt is better then a solid pin.

Except that there not as good to stand on.

I have placed some bolts in the desert and most of the time they stick while screwing them down but sometimes in soft rock they don't. Any suggestions.

Here is a bolt I pulled out with my finger tips on Safeway spire.

Ben

That's a not a smart bolt for sandstone..that cone will just keep comin...

whoever placed that needs a little lesson...

Yeah I hear you Tea, that is not what i would place in the desert.
But there were quite a few of them on the route, and all of them wiggled.

I am sure!....that is about the worst type of bolt you could place in sandstone...clueless....I bet you could sit and tighten that thing till the cone hit the hanger...I'd take the drilled angle over those any day! HA!

How was the route otherwise?

I could not tighten them at all because whenever I twisted the nut the bolt spun with it. maybe i needed some vice grips, to hold the bolt in place?

The route was great!

"I could not tighten them at all because whenever I twisted the nut the bolt spun with it. maybe i needed some vice grips, to hold the bolt in place?"

LOL..exactly!