To leash... or not to leash...

In these modern days of leashless ice tools and leashless ice climbing. I am interested to hear peoples opinions on both types of climbing. I recently modified my setup to a leashless design, havent tried it out yet but it seems to have many advantages. I have talked to many folks that love leashless and many that hate it.

Well I forgot my leashes last weekend so I was forced to climb leashless that whole weekend and I have to admit that I liked it alot (more then I could have even imagined). It was a very free feeling and being able to place screws easily, shake out easily, and swap tools when needed were huge advantages/pluses. I did worry though when I would start to pump out that I was going to drop the tools and I definitely found it a bit more work not having a leash to drop into and rest in but all in all I loved it and I think I'll be climbing leashless from now on.

Leashless is the shit as long as you have the right tools. It makes you climb completely differently. Climbing leashless forces you to climb more heads up, and use your feet more. I know that next year, BD is coming out with new models of the Cobra, and Viper. They are completely redesigned and come with all kinds of attachments for climbing leashless or leashed! What a concept. Better sell my old Cobras this year! I was just thinking yesterday about posting a forum on leashes, but you beat me to it.

I spent a few days in Ouray a bit of time ago; I had with me my Quarks, set up with leashes.

I decided to give them a shot leashless, and see how they felt - I climbed one day with, one day without. YMMV, but I'm sold on leashless.

The biggest issue I had with the leashless was over-gripping; once I got over that, it was really sweet to not be leashed in. I can see how one might worry about dropping an axe - and for now, if I'm on multipitch ice I'm going to leash-in - but, for the most part, it's much easier to go leashless then you might think. I believe that Black Diamond has a safety line system that clips to your harness and to the bottom of each axe; it might just be for Cobras, however.

Regarding the new Cobras - they are SWEET. I saw them in Ouray; they won't be out for retail until autumn 2007, but they took the Cobra, actually balanced it, and curved it like the Viper. Wicked light, VERY well-balanced, new features for leashless climbing - and a wicked hefty price tag.

T

I'm leading with leashes. What I've got is ones that self tighten and stay on the tool, Grivel Easy G Leash

They are not at all troublesome to deal with, I don't worry about them getting in the way when working with screws (because they stay on the tool), and they tighten really firmly to hold my wrist.

This Combination shown on the link to Grivel is really a slick technical alpine weapon - Alp Wing with Evolution pick and the Easy G Leash, then add the trigger and the horn -- the whole setup works really well; though the pick head needs to be shaped, once you do it, the tool is really good.

Anyway, my .02, I'm a mere amateur at this, but I have a good time with the stuff.

I missed seeing the new Cobras in Ouray, bummer!

Anyway, I can see the advantages of leashless...but haven't totally converted...yet (I own a set of old Cobras and they are not easy to retrofit to leashless).

Steve House did give a seminar on Alpine climbing, and had bungee cords attached to his tools. Also, there was a new ice tool from e-climb that looked pretty cool that you could hook to webbing on your glove, yet it was still "leashless" (they call it a "hand clip"). They also make super light screws with replaceable teeth:

e-climb.com

Saw the E-Climb tools, and liked the heft and balance - but wasn't overly-thrilled with the leash system. Yes, it doesn't flop around like the Quark leash - however, the piece that fits around your wrist, actually fits around your hand: going across the palm of your hand. I could see where such a lack of contact with the axe might be an issue.

Great-looking screws, though!! Wicked light, field-replaceable tips... good stuff.

T

Jason Himick wrote: I don't get it. Isn't going leashless as simple as removing the leashes?

Technically, yes. However, the old Cobras don't lend themselves well to having the leashes taken off. Generally, leashless tools - or, tools that can be used leashless - have some sort of fingerguard/finger rest at the bottom of the hilt, that allows the user to keep their hand on the axe more comfortably. The old Cobras don't have that, and it's difficult to retro-fit something to do it.

Grivel (maybe others as well) sells something called a Trigger that can be added to a leashed tool to make it leashless. It might not fit on the BD tools with the strangely-shaped shafts, but it's worth a shot. I've been playing with this idea myself. Not sure if it would work on my Black Prophets or not.

I go with the Android leashes on my Cobras. That set-up is pretty awesome for pure ice or alpine ice. You can remove your hand easily for placing screws, etc, but the leashes allow you to keep the tools attached to you when you are getting pumped or just need a rest. However, leashless tools are definitely the way to go for mixed climbing.

Lots of good information. thanks guys. I have not had a chance to get out on the ice with my leeshless setup yet but ill keep y'all posted.

Drop them leashes and you will realize that the sky is the limit......

Jim Amidon has the idea. On the typical chopped up water ice you find nowadays, leashless is waaaaay more fun and waaaaay easier. When I hear someone say that they're not good enough or not strong enough for leashless I look right at them and tell them they're not good enough for leashes. I can't even begin to tell you the number of beginner/intermediate ice climbers I have converted to leashless to their fun and benefit.

True story from an out-of-shape, over-weight, middle-aged, post-cardiac, multiple-amputee:

My wife and I hiked to Hidden Falls (RMNP) last February and came upon another middle-aged couple climbing the piller there. The guy had just finished leading and lowering off for the woman's turn. She had a brand new pair of good ice tools with leashes and she flailed. The poor woman got up about 30' and had to hang for a while. She got back on and scratched her way up another 5-6 feet before lowering off in tears, her husband saying something like, "Don't worry honey, we'll just do some more pullups so you can be strong enough to climb this.

It was my turn to lead, and did so. When I got down the woman looked at me in amazement and said, "Wow. I've never seen anything like that." I climb a lot differently leashless than I do with leashes. I drop my hand, shake out, mantle on the tool or ice or whatever. Maybe half the time when I move my feet up I'm also pushing down on somethng with my hand. I asked her if she was a rock climber--she was-- and offered to show her a few moves and then let her try leashless. " Oh no, she said, I'm not nearly good enough for leashless."

"No, I replied. You're not strong enough for leashes".

After getting the nod from her husband I spent 5 minutes showing her some moves and let her at it.

She floated it. No problem, No pump but hooting and hollering all the way. She had a blast.

I tell this story by way of example. It happens every time I get a chance to work with someone on leashless techniques.

All that said, leashes have their places. Steep chandeliered pillars. Alpine waterfalls where a dropped tool (I've never even come close to dropping a leashless tool on ice. Back in my leashless days, however, I'd always carry a 3rd tool because a dropped tool wasn't rare.) would be a disaster or in steep neve where you may need to plunge or hack. Leashless tools also suck for pounding pins.

In all, I've found that leashless tools take almost a full number grade off the route difficulty for me. Fluid movement, warm hands, no pump and easy screw placement rule!

Climb Safe,
Mal

Keep in mind gang that some towns require leashes... Banff and Moab come to mind.
Both places have a leash-off area, but you have to bring your own wag bags.
Sam

Here's a thought I'm curious if anyone has tried: Petzl Nomic's w/ BD Android Leashes. Climb Leashless on the Mixed part w/ minimal leash dangle (hoping this is possible), then plug the leash in if you get pumped stoooPiD on the ice?? *shrug*. I really like the "bungee" idea too, but it seems like some leashless tools don't have a hole of some sort near the bottom of the tool to plug into. Hmpf. SchneiBe!!

I haven't *really* climbed w/ a 2-grip leashless yet (DamN-it!! I want some Nomics!!), but I've done it on my pinky rest Quarks sans leashes, and I'm always wanting that 2nd grip. Seems to me the 2nd grip makes or breaks a Leashless Tool. Also, the 45 deg angle of a Leashless Tool's primary grip seems to make a huge difference vice the lil' pinky rests on conventional tools (e.g. Viper, Taa'Koon, Quark). You get more full hand contact this way, which seems to translate to less pressure/pump factor.

Aaron J. Shileikis wrote:Here's a thought I'm curious if anyone has tried: Petzl Nomic's w/ BD Android Leashes. Climb Leashless on the Mixed part w/ minimal leash dangle (hoping this is possible), then plug the leash in if you get pumped stoooPiD on the ice?? *shrug*. I really like the "bungee" idea too, but it seems like some leashless tools don't have a hole of some sort near the bottom of the tool to plug into. Hmpf. SchneiBe!! I haven't *really* climbed w/ a 2-grip leashless yet (DamN-it!! I want some Nomics!!), but I've done it on my pinky rest Quarks sans leashes, and I'm always wanting that 2nd grip. Seems to me the 2nd grip makes or breaks a Leashless Tool. Also, the 45 deg angle of a Leashless Tool's primary grip seems to make a huge difference vice the lil' pinky rests on conventional tools (e.g. Viper, Taa'Koon, Quark). You get more full hand contact this way, which seems to translate to less pressure/pump factor.

I wrapped the shaft of my Quarks above the grip with hockey tape. With that stuff, there's no need for another pinky rest.

I've tried climbing with Taa-K-oons, Vipers, Cobras, Reactors, Nomics, Madame Hooks, and Scorpions - but I keep coming back to my leashless Quarks.

There ~is~ another option... Check out the Camp AWAX tool with the Freestyle leash set-up. Really, really sweet - very unobtrusive leash that doesn't flop around, two different hand positions on the axe, and a small hook for each hand position so you can actually be leashed or unleashed in moments. The only issues I've found with the tool are 1) the head is extremely light, with little penetrating power, and 2) the grip is only on the front of the shaft - your hand contacts the bare shaft otherwise; this makes the axe VERY cold, unless you wrap it with something like hockey tape.

T

Good call Sam.

Be aware when going leashless. Here in Boulder County you now have to have a leashesless permit for certain areas. Also, thats one interesting thing I found about Moab.. Being such a friendly and outdoors place, it was VERY hard to locate a place to "wag" let alone a leashless area. Stupid redneck town anyway..
:-)

Oh yeah.. Nomics. They are the shiznizzel (I really don't know what that means). BTW the Nomics have both a small hole up high for the Petzl leash system, and a large 'biner hole in the bottom of the grip.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:Keep in mind gang that some towns require leashes... Banff and Moab come to mind. Both places have a leash-off area, but you have to bring your own wag bags. Sam

Sorry, but what is a "wag bag"?

T

The trouble I have in going to a leash is that my kitty keeps freaking out. I've told her many times to stop fidgeting with her collar, she makes quite a scene. Maybe, it's time to trade in for a newer model.

Anyone give the Taa-K-oon a dance this year? (I guess T did but he went back to his old lady)

Sold my Vipers this fall and bought the BD Reactors for this year, having only climbed leashless once before.

Leashless all this year and loving it. Like others have said, SO FREEING. You focus more on your feet and gaining solid rest positions just out of habit, not cause you're pumped yet. One thing to be aware of is trying not to place a screw or to shake out while under duress. That's when you'll get pumped out because you're probably overgriping.

No, taking off your leashes isn't always the same as climbing on a tool specifically designed for leashless. Those tools designed for leashless usually have a larger grip and two hand placements. Just having the pinky or the index finger dropped into a hook doesn't give the same feeling as having a grip specifically designed for this type of climbing.

If you have the tools for it (Quark, Viper, etc.), drop the leashes as a TRIAL before you buy ERGOs, Reactors or Nomics. But probably I wouldn't just start climbing on Cobras or an old Camp or X-15.

Mark Nelson wrote:The trouble I have in going to a leash is that my kitty keeps freaking out. I've told her many times to stop fidgeting with her collar, she makes quite a scene. Maybe, it's time to trade in for a newer model. Anyone give the Taa-K-oon a dance this year? (I guess T did but he went back to his old lady)

I've climbed with Grivels in the past, so I kind of knew how they felt; the Taa-K-oons swing very well, and you don't have to swing them very hard. The trigger for your index finger is pretty nifty; definitely adds accuracy to your swing. However, the metal trigger gets REALLY cold on your index finger, I still can't stand the way that Grivel tools clean. *shrug* YMMV

T