When do you save someone from themselves?

I have seen some people out there making pretty poor decisions and practices and it generally doesn't seem like helping or calling them out on it is very well recepted both in climbing and back country skiing. The one instance that really is standing out in my head right now is a party on longs of three guys that were all anchored to a single piton that looked like it had been there since the 20's. Just looking at this made me feel uncomfortable and we did not comment but I thought that doing so would have been a good idea. Last weekend I saw a large number of people in the backcountry with no Avy gear or snow sense. When I called them out on it they got very defensive and told me to go F*$% myself.

My question is that if someone is putting themselves and/or their friends in danger (could also put you at risk) what is the best way to handle the situation without offending someone too much? If they are really endangering themselves and aren't receptive to your insight what is the next step from there?

Jeff Barnow wrote:...what is the best way to handle the situation without offending someone too much? If they are really endangering themselves and aren't receptive to your insight what is the next step from there?

Just make a single remark and walk away. There is no next step. The only person you can change is yourself.

Jeff Barnow wrote: My question is that if someone is putting themselves and/or their friends in danger (could also put you at risk) what is the best way to handle the situation without offending someone too much? If they are really endangering themselves and aren't receptive to your insight what is the next step from there?

I don't see an answer to your question. All you can do is offer help, all you can say if they get pissed is tell them you're just tryin to help. You can't force someone not to go and kill themselves.

If you think your self/team will be put at risk, you've got to change your plan or accept the risk. It sucks; that's why I like to get out during the week, so I don't have to worry about others' stupidity that can ruin my own backcountry rec time.

& also, I've heard it from "experts" but I told them I know what I'm doing, please let me keep communicating with my party; if I need help, I'll be more than willing to accept.

I did talk two kids out of free-handing/Batman'ing an overhanging rap (no harness nor gear, just a rope and sneakers). I figured that's the best I could do, if they went ahead and tried the rap, good luck to them.

A useful technique I've used is to cover yourself with flour and tell them you are their ghost coming back to tell them they are about to die!

Seriously, you know that quote about where good judgement comes from? Some people are not going to do anything different even when you tell them, so it's worth trying, but after that there's not much you can do. In many cases it's kind of a gray area. Would you remind Dean Potter that free soloing is not safe? Sometimes it's not clear who is a gumbie and who is not.

I've even had a mountain guide berating me for being too conservative! Anyway, it helps to approach it with a sense of humor, no matter which end you are on.

I guess that is the way I have always played it. Just seems like if you see people putting themselves in direct danger they would be more receptive to someone trying to help them but that rarely seems to be the case

Mark Nelson wrote: ... & also, I've heard it from "experts" but I told them I know what I'm doing, please let me keep communicating with my party; if I need help, I'll be more than willing to accept. ....

Point of fact -- I'm no expert, either.

George - the flour approach, very unique hadn't thought of that one; do I get bonus points for the flour covered B-day suit in Eldo?

I saw a father belaying his son during X-mas vacation with the wrong hand. his anchor was set up with brand new cams.

either be a dick or dont say anything and hope for the best

Whenever my climbing/skiing partner and myself see a possible horrendous accident about to ensue, we vacate the scene immediately. We have gone home, hiked to another mountain, anything to keep from being part of the "rescue." I used to be young and caught up in my storm years as well, but I lived through my mistakes because I read all I could and practised in the field. I say live and let alone!

I thought of a pretty good answer:

"When do you save someone from themselves?"

When they ask for aid.

Let me try and put this type of situation in a different context. If you're walking across the parking lot of your favorite watering hole, and you see some obviously intoxicated guy getting into his car to drive home, do you: A. Take the chance that he'll think you're a dick and say something to him, or, B. Don't say anything and take the chance that he'll kill himself and/or some innocent person before the cops you call can catch up with him.

In my mind, the same thought process holds true for telling somebody about some potentially deadly thing they are doing wrong when climbing. I would much rather have them think I'm the biggest know-it-all dick on the face of the planet, then have them die or be severely injured.

The good thing - in my experience - is that most people are extremely grateful if you approach them nicely and, in a low key, non-confrontational way, give them some potentially life-saving advice. I haven't been climbing nearly as long as some of the old-timers that contribute to this site, but even so, I have seen enough hair raising situations to last a life time. I generally try to go with my gut instinct in these situations: If it doesn't look or feel right, it probably isn't and you should say something. This, of course, doesn't mean you need to tell somebody the correct way to place their hands for some particular move at your local sport crag - just the stuff the has the potential for death or severe injury.

Just my two cents worth.

Hmm Mike,

I don't think your analogy really applies. Drunk driving is universially known as a bad thing. Many things in climbing lie in a much greyer area as to whether they are dangerous or not. The internet is full of arguments between what one person thinks is dangerous and what another thinks is safe in climbing. Just look for threads on soloing.

All I can say is that if anyone intervenes in a situation climbingwise they better make sure that they know what they are talking about first, and think before they act.

=Patrick

I will rarely offer unsolicited advice to a climber even when he / she is in a dangerous situation. If they can't recognize a dangerous situation and don't ask, they are probably in the wrong activity (i.e. climbing) or, they may be people that are at an increased risk of dying no matter what activity they choose (i.e. stupid).

Either way, live and let live (or die as the case may be...)

New climbers aren't all fools...it's in our best interests to listen to others in regard to learning to climb as well as doing it safely. The interest in mentoring shows this. Sometimes I'm reluctant to "bother" others, though I certainly do if I have a question that needs answering. It's what I may not yet know to ask about that is troublesome...and I don't think I'm in the wrong activity or stupid...just in that learning curve where despite reading lots there is still lots to learn!

The bottom line is indeed attitude and manner. If someone is pleasant in their approach, or asks if I would like to hear a thought or tip about a possible safety issue, then it's very likely you'll get a similarly pleasant response back. If it's one of those very gray areas, perhaps you acknowledge it as such and state your opinion. It presents the concern but leaves room for an individual decison.

I like it when other climbers offer helpful ideas.

Jeff wrote: "My question is that if someone is putting themselves and/or their friends in danger (could also put you at risk) what is the best way to handle the situation without offending someone too much?"

In my personal opinion, the climber/skier behavior you described exemplifies Darwinism at its finest. This is how nature weeds out the dumb ones. Say nothing to them and let nature take its course.
However, it is also true that these negligent gumbies often put others at risk, who have to go save their sorry asses when they mess up, which is truly unfortunate.

I thought Mike McGlynn's comments above were right on. All sarcasm aside, I ditto his response.

Tom Hanson wrote:However, it is also true that these negligent gumbies often put others at risk, who have to go save their sorry asses when they mess up, which is truly unfortunate.

It's not always rescuers who are put at risk. I encountered a situation not too long ago in which a pair of well-meaning, but uninformed gumbies were high up on a crag and performing some really stupid rope shenanigans that could have led to mucho piles of rock tumbling onto unsuspecting climbers below. Let's just say they were not especially receptive to my gentle suggestion on how to remedy the situation. Well, screw 'em. I'd like to think I prevented at least one skull fracture that day. And I bet they never do what they were doing again.

But let's be honest. How many times since the beginning of your climbing career has someone pointed out something that you could do to improve the safety of the situation? Or not. An incorrectly tied knot (Lynn Hill...), a worn-out piece of gear (Todd Skinner...), a deadline for backing off (Rob Hall...)? And I'm not limiting the discussion to giving or receiving advice from strangers. Most of the time, we have one or more partners who are paying attention to what we're doing. (At least you should hope they are. Otherwise, I'd start looking for a new partner.) If your partner was getting ready to pull some bone-headed move, would you stop them? Have you stopped them? Have they stopped you? Why not extend the same courtesy to others? They might not like being called out at that particular moment, but if they're rational, unpretentious, and open-minded, they will one day realize the value of your critique.

I don't know about you, but I'm on a life-long learning curve. And despite that, mental lapses are always possible and do happen, even among those of you who seem to think that you know it all. There's really no reason not to be pro-active when it comes to the possibility of people getting hurt or rescuers puttin' it on the line. If they think you're a dick, well, they think you're a dick. It doesn't mean they're right. In fact, it doesn't mean anything. Anyway, I actually prefer Richard...

I, too, have 'gotten the h$%## out of there' when observing something unsafe or unwise going on... only to spend too much time later wondering whether that was really a valid thing to do. The fact that the topic is batted around here says it's not the best ethical decision.

If kids' safety is involved, I thiink you have an absolute obligation to speak up, even if you think what's going on MIGHT be ok. They cannot protect themselves. Ditto an absolute beginner being led by a fool. Just try to do it in a tactful, non-confrontative way, so as not to embarrass mom or dad in front of their kidling, or joe shmo in front of his date.

Don't assume the party won't welcome you pointing out the problem or suggesting an alternative. Extra karmic points to you if you get flack. You did your best.

And if it's me you're talking to, I'll try to take it in the right way.... ;^)

I commonly see funky toprope set ups at Moonstone all the time. Every time I have mentioned something I have been thanked for pointing out the situation. Everyone is a beginner at some point and there are ways of mentioning safety issues without seeming like harrasment. Some land managers look at "public safety" as an issue that can be used to close crags. A serious injury or death can end up getting the area shut down. When it comes down to it we need to look after each other out there!

The're a varied degrees of danger I read into these posts. Danger to self, party, outside party, & general public. I guess I'd do what I could to protect myself & my party.

If there's a danger to the general public, like someone throwing rocks off the top of a cliff, I'd speak up; the drunk driving example, I'd just call the cops.

I don't think I'd go as far to try and make the world safe for everyone assuming their own risks. I'm not too keen on being the belay police when watching how people act at a sport crag. But if I knew a route was a 35M, I certainly could ask the belayer if he had tied-in or had a stopper, I think that'd be cool. I've seen 3 soloists lose it, but I felt as long as my party (and/or the general public) wasn't in jeopardy, I'm cool with them doing what they will.

Like I posted prior, if someone wanted help, I'd do it, even heading up a wall to evac someone (non-medical), I'd still do it; or just tossing them a rope cause they dropped theirs while cleaning a sport anchor, no big deal. But, I'm not chasing people down to protect them from themselves.

I don't even consider rescue response in the same context of this topic, their training is extensive so as to work within acceptable risk. As well as access issues in relation to incident occurence, I would say this is where legislative advocacy needs to take up the slack regarding liability.

I have had good feedback when I have intervened: On Sundance, a party was climbing past me on a long, long traverse that I had set up a belay in the middle of. The leader hadn't placed ANY pro for his second. I clipped their rope into my belay. The second was VERY appreciative as she climbed past.
Another time on the Dome, a second wearing running shoes was stuck at a friction traverse into a dihedral. He was at the pro before the traverse and looking at a big swing before slamming the dihedral. I led up and rerouted his rope. He also was appreciative. In both cases, I never talked to the leader-they were out of sight.
Maybe I was presumptuous in the first case, but I would do it again. In other cases when I have pointed out unsafe situation, it was also accepted.
On the other hand, I try not to squash others sense of adventure (and territory) and hold my tongue. It is a fine line.

As a guide, I sometimes have to struggle mightily with offering unsolicited advice; I try to limit my interference to times when I can see that there is a "clear and immediate danger" to myself, my clients/partners, or to the other climbers themselves; I've only had to interfere a handful of times.

If I decide that I can't let a situation pass, I might approach - not while someone is on belay, but while things are calmer - and say something along the lines of "Hi, my name is Tai; I'm a guide, and I work for [a company at the Gunks]. I noticed something about [something], and I'm sure you know it's there, but in the interest of [whatever], I was hoping that I could offer some unsolicited advice? Feel free to tell me to stuff it up my nose, if you'd like. {BIG SMILE}"

I tend to get reasonably good responses to that type of approach; I establish that I do know what I'm talking about, I don't condescend to the other person, and I admit that any advice I might give is unsought and I know that they could tell me to f&ck off. I also keep it short, and leave the control of the situation in the other person's hands. If they decide to do nothing, I smile politely, apologize for interrupting them, and get the HELL out of the area.

I also might invite people who are obviously new to the area to climb with our group (IF I'm not guiding), and show them where the routes are and what they might need to set things up next time. I'd rather have a few more climbing around me, than participate in a rescue or recovery.

Cheers,

T

Being 47 and climbing since high school I have seen some pretty unsafe practices myself. If I see someone doing something totally unsafe I explain why it is unsafe and the safe alternative. I am a pretty big guy and pretty direct in my speech. No one has ever told me to eat cow patties and die. However I have had people continue on their path to distraction like little lemmings excited about their invitations to a Jim Jones koolaid party. So if I get the deer in the head light look, I just walk away and go back to what I am doing and feel karmically cleansed that I did the right thing. If they go off and die, the gene pool is just one step closer to a more perfect world. However if they do listen, then you did make a change for the better. A tactic that sometimes sinks into the most cro mag brain is to follow up what I say with a book that goes over the procedure. "A really good book that covers what I am telling you is John Long's Big Wall Techniques" is a good for instance. I used to be a medic for years and worked on an Ambulance. In all this time not one person whom I saved their life's ever even dropped me a card. Well that's not true. I once saved Ronald Reagan's personal physician's life. I wrote him a letter telling him that he wasted about $500 of my gear since it was covered in blood and guts and it was time to pay up sucker (in nicer terms). All I got back was a letter from Reagan thanking me for saving this guy's life. Well we were on fire that evening, so I did get burnt as a reward (don't start a bonfire on cement. Even if it's dark, cold and rainy and you're freezing. It has a tendency to explode, sending chunks of cement and fire at high velocities directly upon your body. The only good thing that it was raining cats and dogs outside our sheltered roof so putting ourselves out was quite easy. Beer and whiskey killed much of the pain hours before the explosion). Not a single dime to replace ropes and gear left and ruined. My dad thought it was cool getting a letter from a president I that I really did not care for. I could not figure out how to translate that letter into replacement gear and prying it from my dad's staunch republican hands would be a feat as well. I think I would rather go back to being fire. Too bad ebay was not around back then. Some fool would probably pay big bucks for a letter from some washed up actor who fondles monkeys for a pastime. Then I would have gotten my gear back!