Passive vs. Active... What do you prefer?

I always found it interesting to find out people opinions on whether they prefer to use passive or active protection. Given on some routes, such as those in Indian Creek, require using active due to the very nature of the parallel cracks. Personally I prefer using passive pro, seems more solid then active gear. Your opinion?

I definitely lean toward using passive gear whenever possible, but not so much because I trust it more. Mainly I lean toward trying to save cams for when I either need to place something really quickly, or nothing else will work. If I'm at a stance where I can take my time, I'll usually go with passive pro.

I do like the solidness of a good nut placement, especially a "captured" spot where it's as bomber as a bolt. I also love using tricams at every opportunity. The only time I'll almost always use a cam instead of passive stuff is on my first placement, which I want to be multi-directional.

JL

I am like a squirrel, I love nuts. I just wish I could climb like a squirrel.

I prefer whichever fits the bill... although sometimes I'll get into the mode of placing one or the other.

Passive rules..A good nut/hex/tricam could save all the kids in the free world!

I prefer to place passive when I have a good stance...save the active for gripped quick fire....though like above....what ever fits best. Nutcraft seems to be a fine art, some of these "kids" today, just don't learn.

Nothing protects better than a solid hit on the bong. If not that, then a good drag on the kneebar.

As for gear, "D" -- All of the Above; depends on the situation - but I do so like a belayer with a sturdy grip & a good sized rack the best.

If she's like a 9 or a ten, then, and only then is passive OK. But I hate it when they think being hot is enuff.

Any lower on the scale and she better be pretty darn active...tigress style to keep my attention.

I always climb with an eye for passive pro, as the passive placements are usually not as obvious.

When I first started climbing I went for the passive gear whenever I could, even if it meant giving up a little safety. I thought it was cool. Now nine times out of ten I am throwing in cams. If you are climbing at your limit cams allow you to worry about your climbing and not about the gear. It's all about the placement though, some spots that would be bad for a cam are perfect for a nut. Nuts are good for easy ground so you can save your cams for when you will be desparate to just pop one in. Cams are also faster to place and remove in general, allowing quicker routes and more climbing in a day. Small placement? This is what Aliens were born for.

I'm with Joe. Go to any crag and you will see that what people are actually doing does not reflect the high level of affection for passive pro people are displaying on this forum. Cams are not cheating, they let you focus on what you're actually out there to do - climb.

NOTHING protects like . . .

DEEEEEEZ NUTZ

But on a serious note. . . When it comes to thin seams cams just can't fit in, it pays to be quick with the nuts(particularly micros). If you play with your nuts alot you can chunk 'em in almost as fast as a cam. But when it comes desperate situations usually a cam is just quicker and more thoughtless. As far as what's better? a good cam, a good nut, I've whipped on 'em all!!
But for real everyone likes a good nut!!

It still amazes me how many people don't seem to trust active cams and would prefer to place passive pro. After climbing for many years the only passive gear on my rack are nuts which I generally only place when I see a textbook placement or if I need to get creative. Cams are quicker to place and to clean, are multdirectional and a lot of times actually stronger. I agree it is important to know how to place passive gear but that doesn't mean you need to use those skills when other things work better. I know some people who always carry hexes with them because they feel they work where cams won't. To this I agree but I would say maybe only once a year do I encounter this problem. Passive gear is lighter but how much time and energy do you save using them as opposed to slamming in a cam in 3 seconds. Well this is just my 2 cents and yes at certain areas or climbs loading up on passive gear makes sense but 99% of the time it doesn't.

I agree with what your saying duffy; the only point though about cams is that there are more moving parts that could possibly fail in a unit. I do use cams... a lot, especially when your in a tight spot and need some quick pro. I just prefer using passive due to the fact that i can place a nut just as quick as a cam, and the placements seem more psychologically sound to me. My favorite though, when it comes to passive pro, is tri-cams. They always seem to work where nothing else will (with the exception of an Alien hybrid) and the placements are always bomber.

mschlocker wrote:Nuts are good for easy ground so you can save your cams for when you will be desparate to just pop one in.

mschlocker wrote:Cams are also faster to place and remove in general, allowing quicker routes and more climbing in a day.

duffy dog wrote:It still amazes me how many people don't seem to trust active cams and would prefer to place passive pro.

duffy dog wrote:I agree it is important to know how to place passive gear but that doesn't mean you need to use those skills when other things work better.

I don't know, maybe because I'm an old guy, but all of this logic seems completely and utterly ass backwards.

Joe Lee wrote:Without fail, I have watched all of them on sketchy leads consistently go for the cam again and again and again.

'Walking the talk' when it comes to passive vs. active is simply a matter of being able to 'see' pro and place it efficiently and effectively. It's more of an artisan craft than rocket science and does require learning and practice. If all you do is slam cams, all you'll do is slam cams. It's must be time to launch another drive for a first annual 'National Cam Free' Day.

Lots of good stuff to be said for passive gear. There is a definite extra increment of satisfaction from an excellent hex placement, and if your local climbing area is starting to feel dull and "climbed out," going to all-passive ascents will certainly restore some life to it.

There are some practical reasons to carry passive gear also. Some placements (e.g. radically flared constrictions, or between varnish plates) work better with passive gear. Some placements are safer (e.g. a flake that may hold a mostly downward pull, but would not stand up to directly outward camming action). And then there are situations that aren't obvious until you are in the middle of them. A while back I was doing a route here at Red Rock. Halfway up the last pitch it started to rain. No problem, we figured-- finish in a hurry and descend via nearby bolted raps. Halfway down (3rd rap?), the rope snagged on some little flakes. By this time the rock is running with water like those cute little Japanese rock fountains they sell to induce a mood of relaxed serenity in the New Age set. Serenity will not be ours, as nothing seems to free the rope. Somebody has to climb up fifty feet to recover it. Luckily, we have enough rope to lead on. So I get on belay and start up.

Now it is common knowledge that one should avoid sandstone after a rain. The water softens the rock, holds break, people fall and die, etc. This fact leaps clearly into my mind as I lead through the sheet of water. I reach a crack the will accept protection and I have to make a choice. Do I drop a Number 8 Hex into the good constriction? Or do I go a foot and a half higher and place a Number 2 Camalot in the perfect hand crack? I concluded that the security offered by a device dependent on friction in lubricated, softened rock might not be all that I desired...

Healyj

Why is it ass backward? Its all really sound advice really. After more than a decade of trad climbing I still would much prefer to fire in a cam at a hard section as opposed to fiddiling in a nut. Cams are generally much easier to place efficiently (not always but usually) and therefore can often make the difference between onsight and failure. I´m not at all saying ignore nuts, a sound knowldge in placing both is vital, but if you´re afraid of cams you are putting yourself at a huge disadvantage.

=Patrick

Ps. Nobody pay attention to Brent A, how can you take a guy wearing a suit like that seriously?

pat vernon wrote:....as opposed to fiddling in a nut.

I'm guessing this would appear to be the salient comment here - I don't 'fiddle' with nuts - I either place them or I don't...

Some good insight & opinion on the various gear types.

How many f*ck up their placements?

Put a nut in and cement the damn thing; or fire in a cam fully retracted. (Not me! can't prove it, the cam walked, you can't clean properly, etc...)

Everybody can't get all their placements 100% ideal.

Will the placement hold a fall given the natural feature provided & does the placement need to be multi-directional for a vector? Those should be the only questions to ask yourself.

active pro in a passive mode.

d-know wrote:active pro in a passive mode.

= aliens. (FIGURATIVELY)

Mark Nelson wrote:Put a nut in and cement the damn thing;

For me - and only for me - I strive to match the nut to the geometry so closely that they don't need to be 'set'. I only 'set' about 30% of my passive placements and then typically only with the very slightest, gradual pressure until I can just start to feel some 'grit'. I consider the measure of my art and craft with passive pro to be whether or not my second needs a nut tool. It's fairly rare that I or a second have to use one. And I rope solo about 50% of all my climbing so I 'eat my own dog food' so to speak and don't carry a nut tool when I do it. In fact, roped solo free climbing where you second your own leads teaches you a lot about how you want to place pro for your second...