Drilling Bolts? Do Not Do This!

This was found at the top of the Pixie Rock, Indian Cove, Joshua Tree, recently installed.

If you, or anyone you know, is actively drilling bolts at Joshua Tree for new routes, anchors, rap or belay stations of any kind, please exercise your very best judgment and use the very best equipment. If you cannot afford this equipment, or should you have a lapse in judgment, please do not do anything at all.

There is no reason to install bolts of any kind that are not at least 3" stainless or better with weather-resistant, versatile hangers. If you're installing rap rings of any type, please be sure they are replaceable.

Whatever anchors you install... They are not permanent. They will need to be replaced. Please make sure it's not anytime soon.

It's not like you're doing a ground up ascent with a hand drill or establishing some remote alpine route, nor are you pounding a hole in desert sandstone. I think these baby angles are old school and cheap and have no place in a high traffic area like Indian Cove. I have no problem with fixed anchors. It just appears that someone might be getting a bit hammer happy there lately. There is also a set of baby angles on top of "Igor, Prince of Poodles" in Echo Rock. It would be interesting to see how these have held up since they have been there far longer, though this is far less travelled route. The idea that these angles are better than conventional bolts and hangers is, I'll bet, based more on hear-say than actual fact. If anyone has any better information, I'ld be happy to hear it; and no, I'm not talking Utah sandstone, Joshua Tree granite.

Forgive me if I sound annoyed at the baby angles a top Pixie Rock. Climbing has always been a self-policed sport, and for the most part, climbers have always been allowed to do whatever they want. But there are better and worse ways to do things. If you're going to do something permanent, than figure out the better way. If you all think that baby angles are stronger and will last longer than a stainless bolt and hanger, great. I don't, and I'll bet most climbers (even knowledgable ones) would rather see bolts and hangers instead of these.

P.S.
Yes I did use them, don't be stupid Locker. I also easily backed them up with a piece of webbing and a nut the same way top ropes were usually set up there. I'm not arguing that something shouldn't have been drilled there. They are useful. I just think they're half-ass and not the best choice for the area. There is enough chopping going on there I doubt this thread will inspire anyone. There's also a lot of bad bolting going on. Must be too many swollen egos that think 1/4" button heads are still cool...

Just out of curiosity..
After clipping a lot of angles that I trust more than spinning bolts on the same climb near Moab, it seems like angles hold up better than bolts in sandstone. Is this because angles will not "twist out of the hole" like expansion bolts in soft stone? Also, I have heard that the failure on angles is often the eye, therefore making them easier to judge for holding power.
Any thoughts?

Matt, In case it was missed I'll write it again, in bad rock (like the rock on top of silent scream) Any size expansion bolt can not be installed safely. The use of pins glued in with epoxy is much more so;id than any bolt that could be used in their place, (read Todd's post, he explained it very clearly). The person that put those pins in has a lot of experience with bad rock.... I'm talking really bad rock, go do some of his FAs and you will know what I'm talking about. (I'll bet his tick list smokes yours!) Also the anchors can be replaced.. you just have to bring a propane torch up with you to melt the glue. I personally do place new bolts in the park quite often, and ideally yes expansion bolts are the way to go, but sometimes are not the best based on very specific circumstances. It has nothing to do with ego.

P.S. have you ever checked the prices on baby angles? they are not cheaper than expansion bolts.

"There is also a set of baby angles on top of "Igor, Prince of Poodles" in Echo Rock."

just fine

Hey Todd and S.Powers, thanks for the information. Something needed to be put at the top of the Pixie, hopefully you're right and these were the best answer.

Since you brought it up though, you both sound pretty adamant that expansion bolts will not hold safely in this "softer" granite. Are you familiar with the bolted routes in the Indian Palasades Corridor area? There are two 5.6/5.7's that climb the patina, "Serpent Scales" and I forget the other... One ends at a ledge with a tree and the other at some anchors that were previously located on an overhanging headwall.

The anchors on the headwall were, I thought, very good and not very old. Someone recently removed them and drilled new anchors about 4 feet lower, into the top of a very "soft" block. The rock is equally as soft, if not more so than Pixie, and the bolts are barely 5 inches apart. I didn't like this either, specially since the previous anchors seemed good, if not better. It was recent, so you may not be familiar, but if so, do you think this was a good call? Or could it have been better?

There's been a lot of activity out there. Anchor bolts are missing, ie. "Who's first", "Monaco"... They're being chopped, ie. "Serpent Scales" and others... Good anchors are being moved and removed... I think it's time to start questioning some of this. New anchors on Pixie are good, I may have questioned the ones that were placed, but non the less something needed to be put there. The new/rearranged anchors I described above and the associated bolt chopping on Serpent Scales doesn't seem to be benefitting or improving anything.

I've used the term "replacing" bolts, but let's not make that mistake. In most cases bolts cannot be "replaced." Old bolts are chopped, hacked, or pounded flat and a new bolt is drilled. The bolt "scar" that remains... It sucks and it is a problem. Alright, my little diatribe is done...

Todd, sorry you didn't like the Kennedy's. Since the Bush's have been busy destroying the world I had forgotten all about them... :)

Matt

Hey - has anybody tested for pull force and sheer force of a drilled baby angle cemented in granite? It seems that this would provide an answer...

I am the one that removed the old anchors on top of the climbs in the palisade corridor. The old anchors unscrewed with my fingers, also one of the hangers was cracked and they were very rusty 1/4 inch bolts, they were terrible. When we drilled the new bolts we used much longer expansion bolts than normal they were about 5" long( A lot of work with a hand drill) and we we able to get down into solid rock and get the bolts to seat properly. If we couldn't have gotten these to seat we would have pulled them and replaced them with baby angles.

I don't know the last time you were out there but about a week ago there were very shiny just replaced bolts on serpent scales. If they are indeed gone I will replace them.

So with some work, you were able to get a 5” bolt to seat properly in the same soft(er) granite found on the Pixie Rock? Nice work. This is the same granite that you said, “Any size expansion bolt can not be installed safely…” Hmmm….

Did you also chop the bolts on Water Moccassin? This is the route in the IPC that climbs to the tree. It originally had four bolts, three bolts were added by someone a long time ago resulting in seven total. Someone recently chopped the original 4 leaving a very long, very lame runout to the tree. In the middle of this runout you can’t help but notice the hammered down stud of the fourth original bolt and how nice it would have been to clip the hanger that used to be attached to it. The runout is only 5.4, but the then whole route is only 5.6. Chopping this or any of the other bolts didn’t make a lot of sense, good or bad, the top most bolt should definitely have stayed.

Sounds like all you "Climbers" in Josh, really keep each other busy!

Matt I have been doing my best to fix up crags around here, you are trying to critisize me for the wrong reasons. When we drilled the holes on top of silent scream we tried to put in expansion bolts, we could not get them to seat, so we went with the Baby angles. On water mocassin we were able to make the expansion bolts work so they stayed. And yes I did chop the bolts, they were really bomber 1/4 button heads. The studs you saw have been only studs for at least 6 years. Next time your in josh come into nomad ventures (where i work) ask for me(Steven Powers) and say, "hey let me see the bolts you pulled off of those routes" and ill say, "Sure" and you will say,"oh SNAP! I cant belive I mistook those for bolts! Thanks for replacing those" then I'll say, "your welcome, I work really hard to keep the high traffic areas equppied properly, and I even spend my own money and my own off time so folks who are coming out to go climb bolted routes can climb on safe bolts". As for the button heads I removed I plan to replace with an expansion bolt, and its okay that I didn't have time to do all of this in one day, if you read the guide book it says there are only three bolts on the route any way. I hate when people whine about this stuff, if you don't like it why don't you spend some of your money and your time off putting up new routes and replacing bolts? And on other note I am not done over there, by the time i am there will be no studs sticking out and all the old holes will be patched to the best of my abilities. Sorry you feel the need to be negative and make such a big deal out of really nothing. When your in town I'll buy you a beer and we can discuss this, maybe we can go out and replace a few bolts. Cheers!

S.Powers - thank you. It sounds like you are doing really good work. It's nice to have someone who really understands the mechanisms involved in keping the metal in the rock, doing anchor upgrades.

As a sandstone climber at heart and a basalt climber in practice these days, it's hard for me to imagine anyone questioning the strength or integrity of an epoxied angle in granite - even bad granite. But then I haven't made it down your way yet I guess.

Matthew F wrote: "There is no reason to install bolts of any kind that are not at least 3" stainless or better with weather-resistant, versatile hangers."

Tell that to Harvey Carter.

Greg, after a brief moment of weakness, I have to agree with you. I’ve set up ropes there plenty of times just fine. It’s ironic though that you used my quote to make your point as I didn’t actually drill the anchors. Guess I’ve learned my lesson…

Steven, my apologies dude. I had no intention for this conversation to go this direction. I began this, because I didn’t like the anchors on the Pixie Rock. I don’t think pitons are in anyway better than bolts (for this application, in this area), but there are plenty of others that disagree with me. Deep down however, I’m going to stick to my guns and I might even think you agree with me. You did in fact drill two sets of anchors into soft rock in the IPC using real bolts and hangers (they’re very good by the way). Apparently you also attempted to drill real bolts into the Pixie Rock and only went for the pitons after the bolts didn’t take. You’re first choice was to go for the bolts. Mine would have been also. I’m not going to argue anymore and yes, I will happily clip the angles the next time I set up a rope there; and did you say “beer!” Anytime…

Oh yeah, without “negatively criticizing” you… If you’re still in the middle of replacing the bolts on Water Moccasin (nobody has anyway of knowing this by the way), might I simply suggest that you drill the new bolts first and then remove the old ones. If you are going to do this, I’ll happily supply the bolts and hangers…

Matt

Gang, there is nothing macho or cool about fixed pro that is "fixed" for a short time. If you are putting in "fixed" gear, that is you are putting in something that will be bomber for you, then make it bomber for the next guy too. Use a stainless bolt that will last a while and that expands a few inches under the surface. Angles, no matter what anyone says, are not consistently solid. They fail and I have personally pulled out at least half a dozen of them this year with my fingers (I'm the ASCA Rep for S.E Utah so I have been doing a lot of the replacement work). Angles are especially silly... you have to drill a 1/2" hole and they cost as much as a rawl with a hanger. That hole could accommodate a bolt that will last 50 years and is good for 7000 pounds.

Do you have the right to place crap? Sure, but don't. All you are doing is making it so that someone in the future has to question the integrity of a bolt that was very good for you. They might have to place a second one, and if you did it right, the placement won't be in as good of a position. It's a waste of the resource to place an inherently weaker piece of fixed gear.

Sam,

Are you saying you removed some epoxied, drilled angles with your fingers? Or are you talking just drilled angles? Or regular, non-drilled angle placements? As far as non-drilled pins go, my replacement experience is that medium and long LAs, Bugs, and soft Euro spades stay pretty bomber whereas old KBs and angles are bad way more often than not.

Sam,I don't place crap, I place what works best in each circumstance. They are bomber. I have yet to find expansion bolts that expand a couple of inches above or below the surface. I am done posting here.

Has anyone used these?

Jonathan,
Is the stud in the picture 304 grade stainless? It looks galvanized. My feeling is the hilti HIT System (glueing) really ought to be used only with a stainless bolt... like the Petzl collinox. The reason is that the glue is good for like 50 years or more, but a non-stainless stud will begin to rust long before the life of the glue is complete... you will end up with a non-removable angle or stud that is too rusty to be safe.

Healyje,
no, not glued in angles, just angles. Glue or no glue the angle is a problem.

S.Powers,
I'm not trying to be rude here... perhaps the use of the word "crap" offended you. Sorry. However, an angle in a half-inch hole is a far inferior placement... even glued in. It's not tapered or fluted for the glue to get a good hold of it, and it's not stainless.... it's not even galvanized. It will be good for you that day, but it won't be long (relative) before it's not worth much. Also, I didn't mean the bolt expanded to a couple of inches in size, I meant the bolt had an expansion point a couple inches beneath the surface. Virutally every anchor bolt does this.

When placing these bolts in the desert, we all think they won't break down because of the dryness. Not so. It stays damp in the hole for a very long time after a storm. The intensity of the heat speeds up the chemical breakdown. Corrosion tends to start at a weakness, and then increase the size of that weakeness... so, if you have a slight crack in the metal inside the hole, in a few years you might have a completely rusted angle that is more or less corroded into place. Not good.

In the construction industry, everything is built with redundancy. It's generally over-built with extra bolts. We climbers tend to use only one extra bolt for our redundancy. We aren't up there by hundreds of placements that have been tested over time and measured in strength by engineers and architects... doesn't it make sense that we would want the best possible fixed gear for our anchors?