The trouble with Exum

look lee,
don't question PROFESSIONAL climbers. these guys know what they're doing. they're guides for god's sake.

This same thing is happening now at Indian Creek. The three best weekends in the fall will have the montrail splitter camps guides hording as many routes as possible. Sept. 30 - Oct.2, Oct. 7 to 9th, and Oct. 14 to 16. I was told last year it was an amazing site to watch as the guides would carry crates of cams up to the walls. Not just one wall but all of the major walls. They say they are going to use the profits to protect the fragile desert environment but seems to me that training more climbers in desert crack technique will only increase traffic and this will affect the environment. I am going to call bullshit on this rationalization. I have not been there when they are there but I just hope they respect the camaraderie that I usually experience at the creek and share time on the classic routes that they will have their ropes on. This is the most important part of maintaining the fragile environment (the relationship between fellow climbers). We have to get along--Remember we are all in this together.

Now that's just plain pretentious. You might be ok to say you can be considerably faster than some climbing teams, but to say that you - however fast and efficient - and someone you just met are considerably faster than "good" climbing teams is a joke. Either you have a very high opinion of yourself, you have never been a part of a "good climbing team", or both...

Just to throw some more gas on the fire: I've had the same problem with Colorado Mountain Club - although I must admit they have become better over the years at sharing climbing routes. They used to show up at popular beginner's areas and hang 5-10 topropes on then just sit there waiting for their members to show up and climb. I politely but VERY firmly told them "this will not stand".

But I think this whole discussion misses a larger and more important point, perhaps alluded to by John McNamee - that when guides or schools attempt to "claim" a route or area, they are teaching their clients/students that its okay to do that. I think that not conveying to newbies that climbing routes/areas are precious resources that need to be conserved and shared is a huge abdication of responsibility by guides/schools.

Healyje wrote:When everything clicks a guided team can be considerably faster than good climbing teams Now that's just plain pretentious. You might be ok to say you can be considerably faster than some climbing teams, but to say that you - however fast and efficient - and someone you just met are considerably faster than "good" climbing teams is a joke. Either you have a very high opinion of yourself, you have never been a part of a "good climbing team", or both...

Pretentious! You're the first person to say that to me!

I actually think I'm pretty down to earth. I don't spew about what I climb and generally don't get involved with the forums very much. The point I was trying to make is that a good guided group can be fast and efficient over a mixture of different terrain types. I've let parties overtake us and a couple of hours later have waited or been forced to do an emergency bivy because of it. It goes both ways.

Say, for example your onsite lead level is about 5.11 and you are guiding a 5.6 or 5.7 alpine route with a lot of tricky route finding. A route that you have climbed 10 times before. Do you think the guide and guest is going to be any slower than a party that has never climbed the route before. It really depends on the type of climbing and the terrain you are moving over.

People generally lump clients into people who don't have much skill, but you might be surprised. Often they can be very motivated and skilled. I once guided the president of the French Alpine Club but to the other people on the mountain that day he was just a client and they were climbers.

At the end of the day the resource is limited and as climbing and skiing gains in popularity we are all going to have to share and get along. Guiding companies face this issue all the time but now in ever increasing numbers. They don't want to guide Castleton Tower on Saturday morning, but if its the only day that the client has to climb it, what are the options?

It is easy to be critical of guiding companies and clubs like the cmc, but don't forget about all the positive outcomes that go unseen. People generally complain about things rather than often positive feedback.

Or maybe I've never climbed in a good climbing partnership!

so John, what is someone who has never paid a guide service to guide them going to have positive to say about guides taking over crags? just curious

Some examples may be trail building and anchor replacment at crags, etc. These are examples of positive contributions.

Man...sensing a lot of guide hate here. Before I started in on guiding I never had a bad experience with one. I know for myself, and probably every guide I know on a personal level, if you go up to them and talk it out they will probably figure out a way for both parties to coexist. If a guide has TRs set up that aren't being used, why don't you ask if you can pull the rope, lead it, and restring it for them? Maybe you can just TR the route on their rope. If the ropes are being used, just go somewhere else...this is what you'd do if a party of hard kor climbers was already on the route, or you'd wait until they were finished, and I'm sure that if you want to climb a route bad enough, the guide can find some way to rotate you in. However, as the party that was first up to the route, they do have a certain right to climb there. How do you think guides feel when they are introducing people into the sport and a couple climbers come up and bitch because they feel that as climbers they are somehow better than clients and therefore more deserving of the rock? Just because you can lead climb does not give you more right to the rock than someone on their first day out. Yes, the crag is a shared resource, which means that sometimes climbing parties have to compromise too. I know that many guides, especially if they are going to be top roping, make an effort to find areas that aren't too crowded. I often see TR's set up on Supremacy Slab at Eldo, an area many other climbers have no interest in climbing, just for this very reason. I know for a fact that guides often change the route they are guiding based on how many people are climbing it when they arrive and how quickly they are moving. As a guide, you must have one or two back-up routes in mind anytime you take clients out on the rock. I guess the point of all this ranting is that most guides are pretty chill guys (I mean, we have to get along with irritating clients all day, that's gotta say something), so if you go up and talk to them in a reasonable manner, most guides will work with you to figure something out, whether that is to pull a rope or to direct you to a great route they are not using in the area that you might not have thought of (this happened to me several times from the climber end). End rant.

John McNamee wrote: The point I was trying to make is that a good guided group can be fast and efficient over a mixture of different terrain types. I've let parties overtake us and a couple of hours later have waited or been forced to do an emergency bivy because of it. It goes both ways. Say, for example...

Then I'd say qualify your statements at the time you make them if you don't want to catch flack over them. A blanket, unqualified statement like you made doesn't stand very well on its own. You clearly implied all things being equal, you and a client can move faster than a good climbing team. I simply called you on that statement.

Guides today are an integral part of the commercialization of climbing that mushroomed right behind the increasing annual tidal flow of climbers cranked out by gyms over the past twenty years. You may feel you don't have options besides Castleton on Saturday morning, but in my view you do and so own those choices and, as a member of the AMGA, the behavior of your fellow guides. It's no different than guides owning the consequences and impact of guiding 8k peaks with porter staged fixed lines, O2, and supplies, or for that matter, the Catholic church saying don't judge us because of a few pedophiles - both are at least partially-responsible for creating the institiutional / commercial environment where the problem exists.

Just to set the record straight, I'm not a member of the AMGA and never have been. I'm a retired guide from down under who now lives in Littleton. My comments are my own, based on my own experiences guiding around the world including the US.

Regarding commerilization of the outdoors, I think the media has as much to do with it as guides. New guide books often bring about an increase in the numbers of people visiting the crags, likewise movie. Look at magazines like adventure or outside.

The first time I went to Indian creek a guide book didn't even exist, we found the routes by counting the number of cattle stops and then looking up from the road and wondering along and after many false starts we found the climb we had travelled so far to find. We spent a couple of weeks there and ran in one other rope team.

Now last fall, it was like North Table Mtn above Golden, on a warm wednesday evening after work. There weren't lines of people, but there were climbers on just about every popular route. And everyone was walking around with the new guidebook. People were talking about where to go to find peace and solitude.

Here is the response I got from the folks at montrail. It is appreciated and seems quite resonable. I love the friendly atmosphere at Indian Creek and would hate to see it change.

Our group ends up being no bigger than other groups of weekenders that head to
Indian Creek, as we split every body up, and go to many different cliffs, we
don't all congregate at one crag, and one set of routes. Of course others can
climb the routes, they are there for everyone to climb, and we likewise wait
our turn to climb routes if they are busy. If we are on a route that someone
else wants to climb, then of course they can, and we either leave the route
free or people are able to use our ropes if they wish, which people seem quite
pleased to do. I can't post where we are going to go, as that is decided on the
morning, but you can guarantee that we will take some people to BoB, Donnely and
Supercrack.

There have been no problems with any of the climbing community so far, we are
not there to take over or hog the routes, and respect other climbers and we all
seem to get along fine.

Thanks for your concerns, and if you have any other worries, please don't
hesitate to contact me.

I noticed that your camps will be happen the same weekends that i will be down their. What are you doing to minimize your impact on access to the routes? Are you going to let others climb the same routes you have put up or will they be unavailable all day. What walls are you going to be climbing at ? Could you post where you are going to be so other know which areas to avoid. I hope we as a climbing community can figure out how to get along as things get more crowded down there.

I agree on the first come first serve rule . The gray area for me is the money thing. Its like a professional photographer needing to have permission to set up a shoot in a NP. anyone can pay their fee to get in and take as many pictures as they want but when it comes to setting up professionally, one needs permission. this is the part that gets me and I believe that if this gets more out of control we will start needing permits to go cragging. wouldnt that suck?

similar issues are heli-skiing in the local wilderness areas and getting a permit to float the grand. both are giving people with a few extra thousand dollars preferential treatment over regular joes. this doesnt seem right to me. not on my public land.

Exum did allow 2 of us to use the rap on the grand teton while they were getting the last of their 1000$ a head customers off the top a few weeks ago. they could have made us wait.

Just checked the Exum website. Prices for private guiding on the Grand range from $750 for a low difficulty climb to $875 for a high difficulty climb. Almost a grand for the Grand, but not quite. Be careful not to make inflammatory statements and sweeping generalizations when posting comments. When citing monetary amounts get the correct amount.

mobley wrote:Its like a professional photographer needing to have permission to set up a shoot in a NP. anyone can pay their fee to get in and take as many pictures as they want but when it comes to setting up professionally, one needs permission.

This is already the case in many places across the US. In order to guide at Eldo you must be an AMGA certified Rock Instructor and have proper insurance (actually, insurance is the much harder part of the deal). Same thing for J-tree and a number of other places. In other areas, you have to be a full out certified guide. Any guide you run into who does not meet these requirements must be operating under a company's guiding license, which requires the company to have so many certified guides, etc. While I'm sure there are still many crags at which anybody can come and guide in, there is a national trend moving towards requiring AMGA certs to guide. So actually, because the guide is making his living off of what he does, just like the professional photographer, he does require permission to operate in the area.

I am somewhat new to this forum, but thought I would share my two cents. I have both taught College Climbing courses Rock and Ice and have worked as a guide, I love to climb on my own and there is nothing better then dawn patrol with a good friend or two. Most of the guided groups I have run into have been great but I think that most people have had a run-in with a grumpy guide. This is sad as soon as Exum comes up I think of a time in Provo Canyon where a Guided group came up late then started to climb right across my rope-literally trying to push me out. I can tell you there were not very good feelings for that group that day. 1 guide and 2 clients if I remember. Be glad we don't live in the Midwest groups there hang ropes in the main climbing area and leave them up all day sometimes not even attending them, they figure they were there first and so they get the routes. Kind of like leaving your quarter on the video game so that people know that there is a queue Or you will be leading some pitch and have a top rope drop right on your head, then when you yell up that you are leading the route, they tell you that it is their route because they built the anchor before you got to the top. Sucks... At the same time I have climbed all over the U.S. and some in Europe and for the most part have been impressed with the caliber of people that I have met that were guiding. They were very informative and helpful to those of us going it on our own. I hope that most guides try to get along and that there are only a few out there that it really goes to there heads.

John McNamee wrote:Just to set the record straight, I'm not a member of the AMGA and never have been. I'm a retired guide from down under who now lives in Littleton. My comments are my own, based on my own experiences guiding around the world including the US. Regarding commerilization of the outdoors, I think the media has as much to do with it as guides. New guide books often bring about an increase in the numbers of people visiting the crags, likewise movie. Look at magazines like adventure or outside. The first time I went to Indian creek a guide book didn't even exist, we found the routes by counting the number of cattle stops and then looking up from the road and wondering along and after many false starts we found the climb we had travelled so far to find. We spent a couple of weeks there and ran in one other rope team. Now last fall, it was like North Table Mtn above Golden, on a warm wednesday evening after work. There weren't lines of people, but there were climbers on just about every popular route. And everyone was walking around with the new guidebook. People were talking about where to go to find peace and solitude.

This is forthcoming considering ... well, isn't this your website or something? I like honesty and respect what you're saying.

As far as guiding in the Grand Canyon, it actually takes many more thousands for the gear/boats than you'd pay per person. But look at what commercialization has done to it? I'm on the 15 year plan for my permit - and I put in for it when I was guiding there. Worth the 2-3000 per head to go down... If you have that much cash. A grand in the Grand for the tip was our goal, but these days they get a lot more. Its great for the guides, but it shows the clientelle they cater to.

Mighty fine bouldering down in that place... where I learned to climb.

Hi,

James Garrett, I've finally found you! About a year and half ago, I was trying to track you down. I'll expain why, and also share my perspective on NOLS using Sawtooth Canyon.

I work for NOLS. I've had the extraordinarly pleasure of working the House Range Climbing Camp (as we call it) three times, and worked a camp for another organization there once. That's about 80 days camped next to the Mormon Tea and Juniper.

In my experience, NOLS goes to substantial lengths to use out-of-the-way places where they will minimize impact to other users. The House Range/Sawtooth Canyon is an example of this--it's out of the way and not many people climb there, so we're able to fly under the radar. The group size at the House Range is never above 15 (and is usually less than that, including instructors), but may seem like more because we use tent flys to store our gear.

We don't always go to out-of-the-way places--forgodsakes we take a camp to Red Rocks--but even there most days we'll go to a TR crag up in a canyon, far away from popular climbing areas.

Even with 15 people, we usually only use one crag at a time. Novice climbers usually climb once, then hang out for a long time, then might climb again--but rarely do more than 4-6 climbs in a day. So we can get away with hanging only four ropes for 12 students.

It is true that instructors like to hang a rope on the Tombstone and leave it there--that thing is just so good! I'd be plenty happy to pull it, but in the 80 days I've spent in the House Range, not a soul has come to climb the most classic line there. In fact, I've only seen three parties come to climb Notch Peak--no one else has come to climb any of the granite buttresses you hint at in the end of your book. That's pretty awesome--getting in about 800 student days and having only 3 other parties aware that you exist there.

About your book--I have spent endless amounts of time going through it and gaining inspiration from the routes on Notch Peak. I've tried to do the climb before but have been thwarted by weather. It's a nice piece of literature and a worthy investment for those looking for an alternative Spring/Fall climbing destination.

My supervisors know that you are unhappy about us using the canyon. In fact, each time I work the course the instructors are briefed on the situation and are asked to be very polite in the event we run into you. I think we'd be pretty polite anyway.

So--18 months ago I was trying to get in touch with you to rectify the deal route names. I checked in at IMC but they didn't know how to get ahold of you.

I don't think anyone "re-named" the routes that we're in the guidebook, it's just that we we're using the canyon previous to the publication of your guide. When NOLS started using the canyon, I don't imagine that they were able to find FA info in such a remote location. I would very much like to get the original route names from you and note them in the handbook we use. As it is, I made several notes in it from the limited knowledge I had come across, such as what we call the Optimizer you call the Tombstone (god that thing is so good!). You can email me at nathanfurman@yahoo.com and I'll make sure that it happens, but maybe not until next summer.

Lastly, I recognize that NOLS does impact other users. I'm not suggesting that they don't. But I will defend them to the point--this being that the instructors I have worked with are very courteous to others and bend over backwards to stay out of their way and pull ropes off climbs that others want to do. (In Cochise, doint Absinthe of Mallet with 2 students, I was racked up just starting to lead and another party came up. I came down and waited 1.5 hours for them to get ready and go before starting.) Personally I almost have a sense of shame about being so blatently obvious at times, because I know that right after the course I'm iching to go on a personal climbing trip and would be bummed to run into some guy being rude to others, whether he's guiding or not. So I try to be polite as hell.

Yours in West Desert Bliss,
Nathan

By the way, this is one of the most special, beautiful, spiritual places that I've been to. Y'all should check it out--James Garrett's book will get you headed in the right direction.

By the way, this area is a Wilderness Study Area and is getting completely killed by OHV use. OHV Trails are popping up everywhere within the WSA.

Whassup Hampton? I hope Tucson is treating you kindly. Jess and I just got married! Say hi to Bridget.

Jerome Stiller wrote:Just to throw some more gas on the fire: I've had the same problem with Colorado Mountain Club - although I must admit they have become better over the years at sharing climbing routes. They used to show up at popular beginner's areas and hang 5-10 topropes on then just sit there waiting for their members to show up and climb. I politely but VERY firmly told them "this will not stand". But I think this whole discussion misses a larger and more important point, perhaps alluded to by John McNamee - that when guides or schools attempt to "claim" a route or area, they are teaching their clients/students that its okay to do that. I think that not conveying to newbies that climbing routes/areas are precious resources that need to be conserved and shared is a huge abdication of responsibility by guides/schools.

I want to start this post off by saying that I respect what has been said and by whom it has been said by. I am somewhat disappointed this issue was brought up like this in a public forum discussing professional guide work within a different geographic region than the initial post topic had intended. But, I'm always one to exchange constructive criticism for the betterment of climbers & climber safety.

I think there are 2 areas of context we are looking at here.

But first, maybe better to explain what the CMC is. It is a charitable & educational organization made up of volunteers trying to help each other out & promote the conservation of various Colorado areas; and it is also a recreational user group. The Club should not be construed as a commercial use service & not compared to the professional institution of guiding.

Now the 2 areas of context I see out at the crag in regard to the CMC: schools & recreational use. First, recreational use, At a crag is usually just a few members coming and going together enjoying a few top-ropeable routes (NOT the first pitch of a multi-pitch destination climb – just a point to differentiate). Someone leads a route or walks up and sets an anchor so a few others can enjoy the line. I don't see that we have a problem with this, as I see most other climber groups out with their friends doing the same thing. In fact, Jerome & I have gotten together on many occasions and done just that for members of his rescue team & we have all had a good time of it and had a few beers & burgers at the end of the climb.

Second, club school use. This should be prefaced that both the CMC & MRA have safety education on technical terrain as something relating to each respective mission statement. Both organizations deal with technical aspects of mountaineering so it should serve that the CMC is within its charter to teach technical safety skills to its members.

This follows what the MRA would like to see from more climbers in general: “The MRA firmly believes that training and education are the keystones in the solution to this issue [context of rescue cost]. We believe that the individual must accept responsibility for his or her actions and that training in proper outdoors skills and for self-rescue might be the quickest and most effective method of resolving most rescue situations.”

The climbers involved with the CMC only strive to serve this purpose on a volunteer basis. The problem is that what we do is an inconvenience to those wishing to use an area, I understand that. But in what we do it is necessary to use a route/area. Now, the extent of that use can certainly be worked with. For the example that was given by Jerome, I believe we are talking about N Table Mtn (correct me if I’m wrong).

We also have an area, Maxwell Falls, that we use for one weekend in the summer. Maxwell Falls is used by us within a special use permit because we have a large user group for the skills set we instruct. The combination of our educational work & legal permit should allow us to use the area that we need to accomplish the safety skill instruction. I don’t think this is an issue as most climbers that go there do see why the area is used for this purpose, and the area is secluded enough to stay away from the climber going to a destination type climb.

I think what we do at N Table is more the issue. As with any user group going there, no permits are necessary for use, so we have more varied groups partaking the climbs as they offer a low commitment but a high quality of climb & availability of anchor systems. We will need to use a few routes on a given weekend day (which is usually maybe 3-4 days per year). To describe this area, it is one in which there are a multitude of routes (it’s not the size of the Gunks, but there are a significant amount of routes to accommodate everyone out there for a given weekend day). Taking a few routes to work with climber safety should not intrude on the other recreational users’ ability to enjoy N Table. I think something within Jerome’s message indicates that we take over the entire mountain and push everyone out, that is not our intent. We strive only to show others some techniques that will keep them safe & enjoying climbing, like basic belaying, catching falls, cleaning anchors, & rappelling. Certainly this website group should see the benefit of us using a small percentage of an area to show others, with no experience whatsoever, how technical systems work & how to enjoy climbs.

I don’t agree with the sentiment that we offer a feeling that it is ok to take an area away from people, we don’t do that. But we need to set up anchor systems on a short crag before a group gets to the site so that we can complete our education. This really is no different than what other organizations & rescue teams need to do to promote their system of technical mountaineering safety.

ps - my experience with Exum up at Jackson has been extremely positive.

Sounds good Mark,
But I am sure you realize that every guide is an individual and comes off differently to the non guided climbing parties that he or she may encounter at the crags or in the mountains. I believe this to be an excellent and appropriate forum for this topic, though I did not originate the thread.

Just because CMC or Exum or NOLS or whomever has policies and guidelines for how guides should interact with outside groups of climbers, they are usually more focused on their clients and the group they have at the time....as they should be!

Only, I find it perplexing that so many guides are becoming so defensive and even surprised that such a concern would even exist. If you are a climber yourself who climbs privately, I am sure you have felt how different it feels when you go to your favorite crag and find not a pair of climbers, but an entire group lingering around at the bottom or TRing or hanging their ropes on multiple favorite pitches than when you go and you are the only ones there. Is this a mystery to you? You don't have to justify your profession to me...most of us will simply see the group ahead as "occupied" and turn around and go elsewhere. This is sometimes more complicated if a certain goal is the desired objective and it happens to be the guided groups as well. Such is life.