half rope technique question

I was looking into buying a pair of double (half) ropes and was wondering if you could use them as twins (click the 2 ropes thru all the pro for a pitch) as opposed to alternating.

I know of only the Beal Joker that has been tested as a single half and twin. Anyone used it/them?

Yes, you can use doubles as twins (addendum - this assumes your pro is good). It diminishes one of the pluses for doubles - the lower impact force ; however, on the plus side, it does mean you will get less stretch/not go as far (addendum - to be clearer: i.e. falling on doubles clipped as twins increase impact force on you & gear, but it shortens the fall), if you fall near ledges or other hazards. It also means you carry more weight than if you were climbing with twins. Finally, you get more drag clipping them as twins.

P.S. Don't mix double & twin technique.

So, on a related topic -- I believe there are some risks associated with clipping two ropes in a mixed fashion -- as twins on some pieces and as doubles on other pieces on the same pitch. Something along the lines of uneven stretch -> nylon/nylon -> melting during a fall. Anyone have any further details (or better yet, a link to formal documentation) on this aspect of using doubles as twins?

Here's a discussion we had:
mountainproject.com/v/climb…

Here is the UIAA .pdf showing some basics of the certification:
uiaa.ch/web.test/visual/Saf…

The intent of the twin cert and the half cert are different in application. Double/halfs are meant to have one strand in each protection point, whereas the twin method uses both strands in each protection point.

Some doubles are also receiving the twin cert. So, it depends on the manufacturer's recommendation on how the system is to be applied. If you do apply a twin method using halfs (wherein the strands are certified for only the half method) you will receive more impact force, but you will also place more force on your protection. Also mixing a pitch from half to twin is not advised based on the correspodence received; say protecting 2 seconding climbers moving from a vertical line to a traverse, then to another vertical line. You could use a sling and extend out one strand so they don't both react on the vector's protection point at the same time. But the advice is to place another protection point and keep each strand completely independent.

My thought when using a 2 strand system is to preserve the protection, I think this is a difference of opinion than what Leo has offered (maybe not, he edited his original thought -- I do that alot too, must have also been a need for more coffee). But, I think both of us will use a philosophy when climbing on a 2 strand system: falling is generally not on option when leading.

Mark, let me summarize what I read off that linked thread you started. Tell me if this sounds right. I'm going to term 'mix-clipping' as clipping as twins and as doubles on the same pitch.

- Avoid mix-clipping in a single pitch, if avoidable.

-Assuming you're going to mix-clip,
1. First, try and get in a second piece of pro to clip separately. Personally, I'd try and get a couple-foot differential (up and down) between the two biners that clip the ropes by adjusting runner lengths. That allows for one rope to stretch more initially (leading to more of a double-rope effect) and also keeps the ropes from 'pinching' between two biners.

2. If not 1., clip a the two ropes into two separate biners off the same piece -- preferably off different length runners. I would not biner both directly to the piece -- as this could potentially cause the rope to 'pinch' between the biners. Personally, I'd try and get a couple-foot differential (up and down) between the two biners that clip the ropes by adjusting runner lengths. That allows for one rope to stretch more initially (leading to more of a double-rope effect) and also keeps the ropes from 'pinching' between two biners.

3. If not the first two, then clip only one rope!

Reasons for not clipping...

Together in one piece and separately on other pieces:
- nylon rubbing on nylon while moving at different velocities my melt the sheath
- extra friction in the rope, not allowing the full stretch of the rope to be 'utilized' during a fall

Together:
- increased force on the pro and leader during a fall. With ropes designed to be double/twin, minimum 20-25% increase; more with ropes not designed to be clipped with twins.

(I'm actually surprised those Edelweiss 8.5's were only 20-25% higher impact force while clipping twins)

Does that summary sound about right? Did I miss anything?

Seems like pretty important stuff to know, for those leading on doubles/twins.

Mark Nelson wrote:But, I think both of us will use a philosophy when climbing on a 2 strand system: falling is generally not on option when leading.

I've used double ropes on almost all my Alpine climbs and big adventure climbs in Yosemite, the Tetons, the Dolomites, and elsewhere. I use them frequently when climbing at Lumpy Ridge in Colorado. I've taken a number of falls while leading on double ropes, and think they are safer to lead on than single ropes for a number of reasons.

I'm as willing to push my limits using double ropes as much as singles.

Avery, One thing that I have done when only one protection point is available at the vector, I take 2 slings, I use one as a quickdraw and I extend the other. One concern I see is using a screw hanger, maybe it's better to have one biner to the hanger and have two slings coming of the biner, one sling extended and the other is in a shorter quickdraw length; if screamers are used, I guess you'll have to see how its extension will interact with the other sling length; maybe a screamer off of each.

One climber offered to just put a screamer off of his harness, but this really doesn't mitigate the impact force from the pulley on the pro as well. I also hear some are getting completely away from screamers; maybe, because the modern half strands are being made to absorb force better than previous strands and simple dyneema slings are lighter and screws are stronger at the proper angle so that huge leader falls are not such an issue. But good protection placements are necessary. Maybe they trust the ice more than they used to.

When I started using doubles/halfs I was mixing methods alot because I didn't know any better about impact force applied; until a couple of the stronger alpinists at the CMC showed me some of their thoughts & history and why preserving pro should be a focus.

I guess the method used depends on terrain type, route position, 2 or 3 person team, & manufacturers intended product use.

In this post topic, I think the concern is leader protection while using doubles/halfs. I would just clip one strand in each protection point and keep myself moving through the terrain and get to the next anchor position; if my only concern was leader protection.

I guess a question I would ask is why does a leader feel the need to clip both strands if climbing as a 2 person team when using double/halfs? The only time I'll consider clipping both strands of a double to a protection point would be if I were vectoring and I had 2 seconding climbers, but I'd seperate the strands should a leader fall occur.

Ron, my thoughts were more toward terrain type. If you're taking lead falls in the Tetons & on ice, you certainly have a higher acceptance of risk than I. But, for the practical purpose of analyzing a double/half strand on vertical terrain, I should have no problem with a clean leader fall either.

Mark Nelson wrote:I guess a question I would ask is why does a leader feel the need to clip both strands if climbing as a 2 person team when using double/halfs?

Not the norm, but certainly on occasion:
- near notibly sharp edges
- after a long runout
- in areas of sparse pro
- climbing with sharp points and don't want to stop to put in strenous pro very often

Sharp edges (ie terrain) - trying to keep the strand from the edge - I could see this. If my odds were more favorable in risking the pro opposed to a high chance of cutting the rope; I'd do what I could to keep the rope away from an edge.

Long runouts/sparse pro where the terrain would not lend itself to damaging the rope; I don't see this as a reason to mix methods. The half strands are made for this. In wandering routes, the half strands are best for this, which I think is what Ron alluded to, as opposed to using a single rope.

Strenous placements, such as vertical ice, all the more reason to establish & use the half method, clip one strand, and keep moving.

Sometimes one can clip the two half ropes to different biners attached to the same piece of pro to reduce the friction between the two strands.

In re-reading the initial post topic question, if you buy a dual certification strand (both half & twin certified), you should be within the manufacturer's intended use if you don't mix the methods while on a pitch.

I would more than likely just use the half method, unless traversing with 2 seconds, it would be nice just to clip both strands at each placement, I would definately see an advantage in using a twin method.

I've got all the rope types, I'm still trying to figure which is best for what I like to do; I guess it depends on the situation, like everything else. I just got some 7.7 twins from Sterling & a Reversino, liked them for Tetoning, very light on the approach; didn't fall though.

The newer half ropes are definitely improving their low impact performance and weight characteristics however, I don't think that screamers are superfluous in a lower impact system. As you guys know, ice screws are only as good as the ice they're in. I found recently that ice quality can be great in the beginning section of the pitch and then maybe the middle is crap due to sun exposure and you fall 40', extend two screamers on two screws horizontally placed in marginal ice, clipped individually, and live to fight another day without a scratch. Without screamers I am 100% certain that the screws would both have pulled even with my low impact 8.1s. (I pulled them both out with my fingers after about two turns.)Yeah, dyneema is lighter but I'm not ready to put away my screamers and pick up the harp and halo.