The trouble with Exum

I was at Reservoir Ridge today with my daughter, who is brand new to climbing. We noticed a team of two leading the northernmost route. A third individual was futzing with gear at the base of the route immediately to lookers left of the northernmost route.

We asked what was up, and were advised that they were guides who "had a big group" and would be hanging topropes on THREE routes on that face. The guides were with Exum, or so said the shirts.

Not wanting my daughter to get the idea that climbers are buttheads, we chose to climb the arete and avoid a confrontation.

Nonetheless, I think this was crap. The group did NOT end up climbing all of the routes simultaneously or continuously. At times, the ropes hung unused while new climbers, kids, etc were ferried back and forth.

Next time this happens, I am not going to be nice about it. We are just going to climb and let the chips fall where they may. Being paid to guide does not equal a license to monopolize an entire wall for hours.

Jason, I know you have read this forum in the past and we know one another from Rockreation. You were always pleasant and helpful there. Please pass the feedback to whomever is in charge.

Climbing community, what say ye?

In my opinion, If a route is open, you should be able to get on it. Exum can't reserve a route with only one person standing at the base. You have as much of a right to climb on public land as they do. Given the situation, Exum could have been more polite. They should have let you work in.

I used to teach climbing for the University of Utah back in the 80's. We held our classes in less popular areas in order to avoid this very problem.

Dave, it was pretty clear from their response that they were claiming the routes. They didn't exactly step aside and let us climb nor did they even suggest that we share the route(s). Had that been their intention, the guy futzing with gear at the base of the unclimbed, unroped route might have offered to let us get in a lap. The only response we got was "we have a big group" and "we'll be climbing these routes," which put the impetus back on us.

Bsmoot, hmmmmm. Might you be the one whose name I see so often in the guidebook? If so, thanks for all that hard work. In retrospect, it would have been nice if Exum had suggested that we work in. Let's face it, guiding services must see this sort of situation all the time. They probably figure if they make a show of claiming a wall, most people will find another route. And that policy is confirmed anecdotally by Nathan's observations and mine.

But no worries, next time I will better know how to handle the issue.

Lee,
Imagine the frustration of going to a really remote place like Sawtooth Canyon below the enormous North Face of Notch Peak in the isolated Utah West Desert. Then, imagine wanting to just climb a lot of the routes you might know as well and camp in the junipers....only to find 25-30 NOLS people, most of whom are from like New Jersey with a dozen plus tents scattered over every square inch of campable terrain, and the "classic" routes being renamed, occupied, and dangling TR ropes everywhere! Then imagine the "ownership" they announce because they are there for a few weeks and you might be there only a couple days?

Some of the RR routes were installed because of the constant line ups and congestion over at bsmoot's "Six" routes across the way and the chaos at the Slips. Hike the kids up to Mule Hollow Wall perhaps next time. Even if you don't want to do all 4 pitches, just hang out on the first pitch of DDD and almost guaranteed, you will avoid the crowds...unfortunately, sometimes, you just have to go elsewhere to avoid the selfish hordes.
I feel your pain.

I was also at Reservoir Ridge yesterday starting around 2 PM. I guess that was later then you were there. Exum asked me if they could share my anchor so they could practice rapping on the regular ridge route. They were polite and efficient. I hardly noticed them as they were on and off before my son made it up to the chains.

I don't think Exum wants to lay arrogant claim to entire walls in a popular climbing area because it would hurt their reputation and be bad for business.

Since Reservoir is such a great place for beginners I have seen a lot of big groups of kids and families. I bet you would have good results working into any of these groups if you just talk to them and work out a plan.

Of course Exum is not going to encourage people to climb in the same area, but I doubt that they would be jerks about it if you talked with them.

James,
Your frustration with crowds is probably warranted, but having worked for NOLS I know your statement is a little off base. NOLS doesn't run courses with 25-30 students on them, and they don't run climbing courses in the Sawtooths. If you have had an actual negative encounter with a NOLS course, you should call NOLS and they will happily deal with it.

Hampton Uzzelle wrote:James, Your frustration with crowds is probably warranted, but having worked for NOLS I know your statement is a little off base. NOLS doesn't run courses with 25-30 students on them, and they don't run climbing courses in the Sawtooths. If you have had an actual negative encounter with a NOLS course, you should call NOLS and they will happily deal with it.

I believe if you reread his post, you'll see he's referring to Sawtooth Canyon in Utah's West Desert.

NOLS folks I've run into have been easy to be around.

Hampton,
Actually, Hampton, your comment is typical for a NOLS "guide"...you don't even know where I am talking about. Yes, NOLS does visit the West Desert of Utah and yes, Hampton, at least 12 tents (some very big) were scattered in the ONE campsite...and yes, if one figures 2/tent...that puts the figure at about 25 people (they had two big vans)...and no, Hampton, it wasn't just the one time...and though I am sure they were all very polite and well mannered as they were taught to be back in New Jersey, they dominated the place and had the audacity to rename routes and change routes they had no idea about the history of.

As Fred Beckey commented to me years ago in the Winds, "what the hell do they even have in those packs...they aren't toting climbing gear(We had asked them)?" I've seen 4'7" <100lbs. kids ready to keel over from huge 100lbs looking packs, like what gives? Maybe they weren't that heavy, but they sure looked it!

I DID address my concerns with one of the "guides" and he merely commented, "I can understand your concerns". And that was the end of that...I even gave him a local guidebook and I wonder if he ever opened it.

I cant say Exum is always the one but most of my encounters with the guides has been in desolate places (1+ hour hike in) . twice in Jtree they had taken over crags from one end to the other. one other time they had taken over the classic "tenpins" area in the Black Hills on our ONE day we had to climb there. it seems the large groups have done some monopolizing at Indian Creek as well.

I believe the "white van" people should at least bring some beer to pay people off with. Flowers for the ladies? something, or just spread out a little(this would cost more of course).

I feel for the guides though, it doesnt look like much fun to me climbing at a turtles pace with newbies for small amounts of money.

seeing the looks of fear in their eyes as you pass them with no rope on the Grand is classic. 1000$ a head to climb the Grand now.

James,
Sorry for misreading your original post. However your response is also typical in that instead of issuing your specific complaint to the people who could and would do something about it, you chose to instead blow a lot of hot air in a forum that will never get your problem resolved. You are just whining. And although I misread your post in regardes to the location, the fact remains that NOLS does not have courses with 25-30 people on them.

I'll chime in with a negative experience as well.

I went to climb Ancient Art last fall. Upon reaching the base we found a guided group of about 6. One of the guides informed me they were fixing ropes on all the pitches, had more clients showing up soon, and not to expect to get on the route for 6 or more hours. This was about 8AM on Friday morning.

I can understand guiding classic routes, but courtesy should dictate taking one or two clients up at a time, not fixing pitches, and allowing others to play through.

We left and climbed elsewhere.

RoadTripRyan wrote:not to expect to get on the route for 6 or more hours. This was about 8AM on Friday morning.

Wow, now that is fairly rude. Hopefully this not a common attitude. It would seem to me that guide services have the most incentive to play well. Otherwise the whole climbing community might turn on them. This same guide might soon find someone half a pitch above them deciding to set up a ledge and take a nap as their clients start asking for a refund.

Do you know the name of the guide service? Let's ask them if this is common practice, and give them feedback.

Great to hear from you Lee! I hope you are keeping busy. I sincerely apologize for your lackluster encounter with Exum. We typically try to be as diplomatic as possible and I understand your frustration (see post below). I too have encountered guided groups in popular areas when climbing on my own time and, at times, is very frustrating. But an understanding guide and kindness goes a long way.

Personally, I let people know what I am up to with my group and work out the best possible solution, which includes allowing individuals climbing on EXUM ropes. There will always be guided groups but certain ethics must be followed by guide services:
-Allowing private climbers to use company TRs.
-Don't occupy an area for the entire day
-Work with individuals for the best solution
-Understand where individuals are coming from
-Don't be a jerk!

Let's all just get along!

Posted earlier:

"We [EXUM Guides] are typically very generous and diplomatic if we have ropes hung in an area. We are also willing to work with people if they want to climb as well. Remember that we are apart of this community too and we have no interest in upsetting other people in it. Please direct any complaints to Exum Utah Mountain Guides: 801 550 3986 or the Forest Service (801) 466-6411"

Lee Jensen wrote: Do you know the name of the guide service? Let's ask them if this is common practice, and give them feedback.

Unfortunately I didn't get the same. We were very frustrated, and decided to head for less crowded areas.

On a positive note: a good while back, the first time a buddy & I did Ancient Arts, Steph Davis was guiding up a gal with a huge SLR camera up. We had just started. It was obvious that they would be faster, walk the route, but it was our first Fisher Towers route. We (clueless with only the old Bjornstad guide info) were racked with like doubles, long pants, helmets, water, etc. They had shorts, a skeleton rack, no helmets to do this little warmup. We were chicken about loose rock coming down from above if we let them pass. So, since they didn't ask, we kept going as slow as we did. My buddy even knocked off a block on that chimney pitch. Not once did we hear any complaint, whining, or criticism from them. Just smiles. So, sometimes guides can be cool!

The ridiculous on Ancient Art is not uncommon unfortunately. We too had to wait behind a massive (7-9 clients, 3 guides?) group. A nice picture of the top of the second pitch belay ledge.

That picture is absurd. Taking 7 clients and 3 guides on Ancient Arts is just wrong in my book.

From someone who guided professionally around the world for many years I think you have to keep these things in perspective, and not tar the whole professional body with a couple of poor decisions. The resource whether its a rock climb a peak or whatever is a shared resource and everyone has the same right. Guides have a lot of pressure to guide the classics, because that is want the client wants, more so here in the States than anywhere else.

When everything clicks a guided team can be considerably faster than good climbing teams, but sometimes things don't work out and there is impact to everyone. Just think for a minute what is going on thru the guides mind when they see climbers getting pissed off. They are not happy with the situation either.

If you see something that you don't like talk to the guides involved. I'm pretty sure you will find them pretty receptive and more than willing to work something out so that you can all achieve your goals on that particular day. At the end of the day that's what everyone wants.

I know from personal experience that NOLS guides don't always play well with others. We were camping in Dark Canyon the last night of a Cataract Canyon river trip when a NOLS guide stole the prop off our push motor in the middle of the night. Then he took the spare out of our motor box. All this for taking a camp we signed up for. He eventually fessed up to it, but who does that?

i personally have no love for guides. if they want to make novices "feel" safe then so-be-it. but i will personally pull a rope that's hanging, start up a climb that a guide is dicking around under, a string up an all day toprope if i'm told that i should go elsewhere. if they want to take people out climbing that hope to bypass the mentorship that i went through, that's fine. but if they think they can monopolize public property because it's their business... tough shit. i was in lcc one day last year just walking by a wall and an exum guide informed me that he was going to be putting topropes on all the climbs there and that i needed to climb somewhere else. i WAS just walking by to get to another climb... but that particular guide inspired me to be an asshole and hang both my ropes on two climbs BEFORE he could string his up. i lost the better part of a climbing day just hanging out and making sure that i got in his way... but it was awful gratifying.

In the picture above, I count 13 hemets, with a nest of slings clipped to ... two bolts????

Am I missing something here? The guys who taught me to belay had me secure into three separate pieces (preferably in three different cracks/bolts) and that's just for one person!