"Ropes don't break."

I hate to bring you down, but I haven't seen this reach Mountain Project yet. Check out the full version on supertopo.com, but apparently this rope broke in a climbing gym.

brvoyles.smugmug.com/photos…

The status is that we are waiting to hear from Black Diamond and/or Beal, as the rope has been shipped to them.

aaarrrggg, say it ain't so!

In addition to the thread on Supertopo.com, there's a thread on Rockclimbing.com too. The rope belonged to the individual, not the climbing gym. There has been much speculation about possible causes, but no definite conclusions yet.

I'm really curious as to the cause of this. I've seen a crampon point go all the way into a rope and when it came back out you could just barely tell that it went in in the first place; who knows what the condition of those inner strands would be after a thing like that.

We're all pretty obsessive about our gear but at some point either you're going to screw up or something is going to happen to your equipment that's out of your control. A small puddle of gasoline in the back of a pickup truck, a bit of bleach in the closet, hell I've even heard that cat urine can cause nylon to break down.

Does anyone else here use sharpies to mark the middle of your ropes?

John J. Glime wrote:Does anyone else here use sharpies to mark the middle of your ropes?

I've always spent the extra bux to have a factory marked center point on my climbing ropes. But, I have used the sharpie for putting my initials on my slinged cams and marking dates of purchase on sewn slings. Should I be worried?

Most of my ropes are Mammut Duodess and don't need a user-applied middle mark. I've used a Blue Water Rope Marking Pen on some of my other ropes and on my partner's ropes. Blue Water has stated that the ink from these pens will not harm a rope. Evidently Blue Water is no longer selling these marking pens: Supertopo article

On the other hand, the UIAA has done some tests that show a decrease in rope strength if a rope is marked with a felt-tipped pen:

"Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and some rope manufacturers have shown that marking ropes with liquids such as those provided by felt-tipped pens can damage them; even with those markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results have shown a decrease of up to 50% of the rope strength, more correctly: of the energy absorption capacity of the rope (expressed by the number of falls in the standard test method in accordance with the UIAA Standard101).

Therefore the UIAA Safety Commission warns against marking a rope with any substance that has not been specifically approved by the rope manufacturer of that rope."

Bottom line:

• Check the pamphlet that came with your rope to see what it says about marking the middle.
• The Blue Water Rope Marking Pen is probably OK (I believe Blue Water and don't feel the UIAA warning applies to this pen).
• Other marking pens may cause a decrease in rope strength. Whether this really matters in practice is another issue.

My thought has been that the sheath of the rope is mainly for protection of the inner core. Is this correct? Granted, it provides some strength to the rope, but the numerous core strands in the center is where the strenth and durability come from. I don't understand how the sheath absorbing a non-toxic substance would affect the core. It isn't as if there is enough of the marker fluid put on the sheath for it to saturate through to the core. But that is why I am asking, how does that add up to a 50 percent decrease in falls handled by that rope? I don't dispute the results of the test. A rope that could handle 11 falls now can only handle 5.

I was also confused by the way they tested the ropes. Did they only place the fall directly on the segment of the rope that was marked by the marker? That was the impression that I got. My other impression is that that is where the weakness lies. If you fall directly on the marked area of the rope. It should not affect the stretching ability and integrity of the rope, just the shear strength of the marked area.

I remember reading where at one time sharpies were supposedly fine to be used. For the record, the test that was done, that Ron you are referring to (I believe it is the same one.) did not actually test the Sharpie brand! So I am wondering if anyone has some solid info. on this topic?

I am obviously confused. Fortunately I don't fall very often. And when I do, hopefully I won't fall exactly on the middle of my rope more than five times. :)

This is the report that I have read:

MARKING OF ROPES

That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen (made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance). In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8 falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.

Last year this topic re-appeared on the Internet as well as in Climbing and Rock & Ice. In both magazines the use of felt pens was recommended for the (middle) marking of ropes, while the Internet correspondence centered on the damage. The press, despite being told about the possible damage, did nothing about it. Among the users there was doubt about the sources of the information.

Last year two rope manufacturers (Lanex and Mammut) and the German Alpine Club visited this problem again. Various samples of non-dry and superdry rope were tested using a variety of felt pens (Sharpie was not among them). Testing was done seven to 30 days after application. Reduction varied from zero to 50 % in the number of drops held. Superdry ropes generally had less capacity reduction than non-dry, possibly because the saturation was less. However, one particular rope sample had an insignificant increase in capacity for the non-dry rope, but a 35 % reduction for the superdry. This rope, by the way, was the only one, which did not have a reduction in capacity for both the non-dry and superdry sample.

Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.

Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary. There is no "standard" formula for the chemicals that are contained in the markers. The company has also stated that "Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use."

The recommendation: do not mark your rope with any kind of felt pen. Water-soluble acrylic paints are apparently safe. No information is available how long they stay on.

The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets?

Interesting ... I was looking on the metolius site the other night drooling over some new gear and noticed that monster ropes had a new way of marking the middle of ropes...

Link to Monster Ropes

John J. Glime wrote:The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets?

...and the probability of a rope being loaded over an edge at exactly the marked area (at the midpoint of the rope) in a fall, and breaking as a result, is about the same as winning the lottery. In short, I personally would not worry about it. Your level of paranoia may be higher than mine, however.

I worry more about not having the ends of the rope exactly even on those 100' rappels where you need every inch of rope to get to the next rap station. If you don't use a bi-pattern rope, and there's no factory middle mark, you have to have a reliable way to mark the midpoint. Some suggest threading dental floss into the sheath to mark the midpoint; that may be the best method for non-factory-marked ropes.

I feel that the climbing rope is my most important piece of gear, and I'll fork over the extra bucks to get a bi-pattern dry rope with great handling. My personal favorite: the Mammut Infinity 9.5mm Duodess Superdry

That is exactly why I continue to mark my ropes with the sharpie. The Alpine Club of Canada wrote the words that you quoted.

However, I am paranoid anew from the original topic of this post. Our necessary absolute faith in our rope has come to question, so that has got me to questioning.

If I do win "the lottery" that you mention Ron, at least everyone can say that I knew the risk! I don't mind if it happens to me so much, but I sure would feel like hell if one of my partners died that way on my rope. I guess I will have to inform them of the potential dangers of my sharpie marked rope before we climb.

Damn, this climbing stuff is dangerous... ha,ha.

John McNamee, you can get a similar effect by "whipping" the rope with a brightly colored thread. This provides a tactile middle mark.

John McNamee wrote:Interesting ... I was looking on the metolius site the other night drooling over some new gear and noticed that monster ropes had a new way of marking the middle of ropes... Link to Monster Ropes

I've seen people who've used a fine thread or dental floss to mark the middle of the rope as well. I doubt that a few passes of a fine needle through the center of the rope would be enough to harm it significantly.

In order to have the top piece fall onto the middle mark you would be taking a 165-200 foot fall, and close to 20 feet of rope would slide through the top biner with your rope stretch. Seems like the probability of the rope failing under this low of a load situation is pretty slim.

Anyone else notice their bicolor ropes not having even lengths on both sides? Especially after using them for a while, it seems that one side ends up longer than the other. Maybe I just need to be more careful about leading on both ends equally. My favorite marking system was on Esprit ropes, with the middle and ends dipped in some kind of wax that keeps them from wearing out as fast. I haven't seen any Esprit ropes in a while but they sure were nice ropes.

Kevin Stricker wrote: Anyone else notice their bicolor ropes not having even lengths on both sides? Especially after using them for a while, it seems that one side ends up longer than the other. Maybe I just need to be more careful about leading on both ends equally.

I haven't noticed this with my three Mammut Duodess ropes (50m 10.5mm Flash, 60m 10.0mm Galaxy, 70m 9.5mm Infinity), which I've been using for several years. With what ropes have you seen this problem?

FYI, here are good discussions of How do I mark the middle of my rope?
and Will using a magic marker to mark my rope weaken it?

There's lots more good stuff on the Tradgirl Climbing FAQ

Harold Lampasso wrote:The only time I've seen a rope almost break was in the GoG. A climber took a bad fall pulling a bunch of rock off which in turn hit the rope under tension. THe leader was being held only by 3 strands of the kernmantle core!! The belayer had been hit by rock in the head and was stunned. My buddy and I isolated that piece of rope and took over the belay.

Yikes, that's scary. What's the best method to isolate a section of rope in that situation? Some sort of knot on a bight I'd imagine, but which knot?

Mine was a Bluewater as well, 70m black rope with green and yellow markings. Maybe it has always been that way, but as a 70m the difference has never been much of a problem.

Heard that Topher almost cut a rope going for the onsite of Wendego, skipped a placement and whipped. Rope cut on the edge of the dihedral, only a few strands remaining. I wasn't there though so don't know how close it was, but it's always spooked me away from that climb though.

Peter Franzen wrote: Yikes, that's scary. What's the best method to isolate a section of rope in that situation? Some sort of knot on a bight I'd imagine, but which knot?

The butterfly knot works well for that...symmetrical and multi-directional:

www1.br.cc.va.us/murray/Arb…

It really isn't that unusual for a rope to be longer than the stated length. When a rope is marked as 60m, it really means "at least 60m." I have a pair of doubles that are different lengths.

Peter Franzen wrote: Yikes, that's scary. What's the best method to isolate a section of rope in that situation? Some sort of knot on a bight I'd imagine, but which knot?

In-line 8 should also be good (I don't mean the 8 on a bight), but butterfly is used more, I guess it's quicker/more familiar to make.

Good info, Ron, from Sterling (from Tradgirl), I never took the middle marking too seriously. I've seen some manufacturers have a dye-mark. Don't know if this is a concern??

I've gone to the bi-weave from PMI. Have Edelweiss also, but haven't marked the middle because of a no-fall policy I have with myself when using the doubles.

Harold indicates his next preference for Edelweiss, any particular specification you favor for this decision? (I like Edelweiss also, as well as PMI).