Colorado Route Info: Estes Park reorg

Leo Paik writes:

Organization of something as amorphous as rocks in Colorado is tough.

However, some things may be confusing. E.g. separating Big Thompson Canyon from
Monastery but not listing Combat Rock?

Also, as crags are found or miscellaneous ones don't fit under current
categories, we get problems. E.g. Deville Rocks, Castle Mtn, Sheep Rock, Deer
Mtn, MacGregor Slab, various roadside cliffs, etc.

Leo,

You make some good points. My proposed reorg is a first attempt and certainly
could use improvement.

I think it makes sense to organize the entire Estes Park Valley area as is done
in Gillett's guidebook. His is the most comprehensive guidebook to the area
(better than Rossiter's) so I think mp.com should use the same organization. I
also think we should add rocks to mp.com that are in Gillett's guidebook but are
not on cb.com.

Regarding The Monastery and Combat Rock, these belong under Cedar Park, separate
from Big Thompson Canyon.

The current organization on cb.com:

Colorado
Big Elk Meadows - Boulders
Big Thompson Canyon
Becker Wall
Beige Tube Area / The Narrows
Bobcat Ridge
Cedar Park Slab
Combat Rock
Cyclops Slab [rename to Nancy's Rock]
Jug Dome
Mary's Bust
Palisaide Mountain [misspelled]
Skull Rock
Cow Creek Canyon
Sheep Mountain Rock
The Crags
Deville Rocks
Da Rock [poor name and poor writeup - should be fixed]
Iron Clads
Jurassic Park
Lumpy Ridge
Miscellaneous Crags
Cottontail Crag
The Thumb and Needle
The Monastery
Pinewood Rock
RMNP/Alpine
Deer Ridge Buttress
MacGregor Slab
South St. Vrain Canyon
Piz Badille

Proposed organization on mp.com. Changes are highlighted.

Colorado
Estes Park Valley
Big Thompson Canyon
Becker Wall
Beige Tube Area / The Narrows
Bobcat Ridge
Nancy's Rock [rename from Cyclops Slab]
Jug Dome
Mary's Bust
Palisade Mountain [correct spelling]
Skull Rock
Cedar Park
Cedar Park Slab
Combat Rock
The Monastery
Devils Gulch and Dry Gulch Roads
Alligator Rock [not on cb.com]
Cow Creek Canyon
Kellogg's Krag [not on cb.com]
Rabbit Ears Rock [not on cb.com]
Sheep Mountain Rock
Crosier Dome [not on cb.com]
Eagle Rock [not on cb.com]
Fall River Road (Rt. 34 West)
Deer Ridge Buttress
MacGregor Slab
Window and Castle Rocks [not on cb.com]
Highway 7 and Tributaries
The Crags
Deville Rocks
Deville 3 [rename from Da Rock]
The Ironclads [rename from Iron Clads]
Jurassic Park
Piz Badille
Prospect Moutain
The Needle [split Needle and Thumb into separate rocks]
The Thumb
Highway 36 [not in Gillett's guidebook]
Big Elk Meadows - Boulders
Pinewood Rock
Lumpy Ridge
Spur 66 - East Portal
Cottontail Crag
Windy Pass Rock [not on cb.com]

12/23: edited to rename Cyclops Slab to Nancy's Rock.

Excellent points, organization...however, some comments here.

Due to the access issues with some of these rocks in this area, locals have suggested we not list certain rocks on the website. So, some of us have respected that. Let's do this without causing problems.

Also, listing some rocks like Monastery & Combat Rock under Cedar Park may be more topographically accurate, it could lead to confusion, especially for those unfamiliar with how close these areas are to Big Thompson Canyon. I don't know that there is a right or wrong way here, but more obscure locations like "Cedar Park" vs "Drake" vs Big Thompson Canyon may make for less user friendly information to those less-than-familiar with the areas. It took me nearly a decade....

Also, it might be worth asking Bernard before extracting his organizational scheme here and making it "our" own. Intellectual property/rights, etc. I agree his work on the area is outstanding.

Leo Paik wrote:Excellent points, organization...however, some comments here. Due to the access issues with some of these rocks in this area, locals have suggested we not list certain rocks on the website. So, some of us have respected that. Let's do this without causing problems. Also, listing some rocks like Monastery & Combat Rock under Cedar Park may be more topographically accurate, it could lead to confusion, especially for those unfamiliar with how close these areas are to Big Thompson Canyon. I don't know that there is a right or wrong way here, but more obscure locations like "Cedar Park" vs "Drake" vs Big Thompson Canyon may make for less user friendly information to those less-than-familiar with the areas. It took me nearly a decade.... Also, it might be worth asking Bernard before extracting his organizational scheme here and making it "our" own. Intellectual property/rights, etc. I agree his work on the area is outstanding.

If certain rocks have access issues and locals don't want them listed, then perhaps we should not list them. All the rocks shown as "not on cb.com" are in Gillett's guidebook.

I agree, it might make more sense to use Drake as the area name instead of Cedar Park. Maybe put Drake under Big Thompson Canyon, with Combat Rock, the Monastery, and Cedar Park Slab under Drake.

Regarding using Gillett's organization, I can email Bernard and ask him. In any event, I think we should mention his guidebooks on the Estes Park page.

An overview map showing the location of all the crags would be very useful. Gillett has an excellent map on p. 13 of his Estes Park Valley guidebook. Perhaps we could use an annotated road map showing crag locations. Of course, this is something that should be done for all geographic regions, not just Estes Park.

Another change: rename Cyclops Slab to Nancy's Rock. See Allen Simons' comment on Cyclops Slab on cb.com.

If an area has a sensitive access issue or is closed perhaps we should note this and leave it up to people to contact landowners etc to arrange access.

Back home sometimes "locals" don't want areas listed on sites or in guide books so that they have their own private little crag. If an area is closed or is access sensitve we should note and let the access fund know so that they can clarify the situation.

Otherwise we have no idea of when the status of access changes.

This is also being discussed in a public beta forum, should closed areas be listed thread I started after after some input from Mark N.

Another issue is that different folks know crags by different names. At times, this has led to multiple entries within the database to the same route or same crag. This is challenging because not everyone has the same knowledge base. It also doesn't mean one side in incorrect.

Also,there are numerous rocks up & down the Estes Park areas that have issues related to access. It's probably why many of these crags have not made it into guidebooks. Many of these involve crossing some private land or where access is much more round about to access things if you access them "legally." Some involve interactions with other species. Some of these have made it into published guidebooks but that doesn't mean there are no access issues. Finally, you can't just assume it's local folks wanting to keep outsiders off "their" crags.

Leo Paik wrote:Another issue is that different folks know crags by different names. At times, this has led to multiple entries within the database to the same route or same crag. This is challenging because not everyone has the same knowledge base. It also doesn't mean one side in incorrect.

Regarding Nancy's Rock aka Cyclops Slab: Jim Disney, the first ascentionist, named the crag Nancy's Rock.

Gillett made up the name Cyclops Slab in his guidebook since he didn't have first ascent information, and didn't want to call it "Unknown".

Gillett admits his error in his comments on cb.com, and says he will correct the name when he publishes a new edition of his guidebook.

See climbingboulder.com/rock/db…
for details.

In the description of Nancy's Rock, I'd mention that the rock is known as Cyclops Slab in Gillett's guidebook.

If you think people are going to be confused because they know the crag as Cyclops Slab, call it "Nancy's Rock aka Cyclops Slab" in the database, but don't perpetuate Gillett's error by keeping the name Cyclops Slab.