Elevation: 5,070 ft
GPS: 38.195, -109.54 Google Map · Climbing Area Map
Page Views: 19,394 total · 225/month
Shared By: Dennis Horning on Feb 22, 2012
Admins: slim, Andrew Gram, Nathan Fisher, Perin Blanchard, grk10vq
Getting weather forecast...
Access Issue: RAIN, WET ROCK and RAPTOR CLOSURES: The sandstone around Moab is fragile and is very easily damaged when it is wet. Also please ask and be aware of Raptor Closures in areas such as CAT WALL and RESERVOIR WALL in Indian Creek Details


Harts Draw; AKA: Little Italy Canyon is the major canyon lying between Indian Creek Canyon and Highway 191. The climbing is classic Wingate Sandstone. Hart Draw is public-owned land managed by the BLM.

In 1859, Harts Draw was first accessed by contemporary humans as the route Captain Macomb took to discover the area that is now Canyonlands National Park. Petroglyphs in the area indicate the region was known before this “discovery”. In 1881, the Native Americans of the Pinhook Creek Massacre, who were fleeing a posse of ranchers, used Harts Draw on their route prior to sneaking up and dispatching their pursuers. Since then, the area has been utilized for livestock grazing, uranium mining, and recreation.

Harts Draw has been part of the battleground between resource developers and wildlife conservationists. Multiple attempts were made to establish large national parks that would have incorporated Harts Draw, but the 1964 legislation creating Canyonlands National Park did not extend to the area. In the 1980’s, Hart Draw was identified as a railroad route for a proposed nuclear waste dump, which was ultimately rejected. The prospecting roads of the area have been minimized, but off-road vehicles still frequent the area. The numerous side canyons of Hart Draw offer exploration, wet riparian habitats, and even a few arches.

Safety: Safety Trumps Leaving No Trace in this Area. You will find hangers on bolts.

Getting There

Take the 2-track opposite the entrance to the Super Bowl campsite north and eastward into the mouth of Hart Draw for 10 miles preferably using a 4WD of some clearance. There are only 2 sometimes serious crossings and these are on the 2 big side streams. Many times I did not put the Ford F150 into 4WD coming or going. Only once did I get stuck with 4WD capabilities. That was in the 2nd steep dirt ravine. Scarpelli drove his little 2WD PU in many times at a fast clip in some places. He also got several pulls outs from us.

I suggest that you bring a shovel, a pick and a bar. Sometimes you have to work on the road after a good wash stimulating rain.

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BJ Sbarra
Carbondale, CO
BJ Sbarra   Carbondale, CO
This could get interesting...Kind of sad to see this on here. I fully understand wanting to share all those routes, but this is one of the last great undocumented places. I guess the rugged 4x4 road will still keep most folks away. Feb 23, 2012
Just had to, didn't ya, dennis? Just had to. Feb 23, 2012
By the way, technically is "Harts" with an S. Feb 23, 2012
Oh, chris Kalous,

please consult the topo map for what the draw's name technically? has been. I have such a map on this opening page. Reading Comprehension?

DTH Feb 23, 2012
Hart's Draw has traditionally been left unpublished in an effort to preserve the solitude and adventure aspect of climbing there. I feel that there is room in climbing for all types of climbing, whether it be popular sport areas with guidebooks or adventure areas that are investigated first hand, or by making contact with somebody you heard climbed there a long time ago and asking if you can join them next time.

as such, i ask you to please reconsider posting this area on MP. i don't make this request to be elitist, but rather to preserve the joy of discovering something first hand, or making new friends in the process. please, just think it over for a bit. that's all i ask.

thanks, Feb 24, 2012

give me $2000.00 and it will be pulled.

There is still plenty of discovery left for you and for those who use this guide if they can find themselves discovering the particulars while they are on these 28 routes. Would not leading these routes sight unseen be discovering them firsthand regardless how you found out about them?

I find it ironic that you are even on this site (are you policing?) since it's purpose is for the dissemination of such info as you wish me to suppress. Yet, you want me to honor your particular boundaries of what ought not to be posted.

I suspect that I can find at least an equal number or people who want this posting?

I can also use the word "traditionally" and say that when there are enough climbs at an area they traditionally have been published.

When I meet some one in the country my hackles do not rise for regardless of how they got there (this info?) I see them as I see myself doing something of the same--A fellow traveler on the same road. Feb 24, 2012
BJ Sbarra
Carbondale, CO
BJ Sbarra   Carbondale, CO
Dennis, come on now, no need to get silly. Slim's sentiment I'm sure is shared by many who have been there. It's pretty amazing to have a place like this, and yeah, we did nothing but put up all our own routes. Saw all of yours, of course, and we're quite impressed at all the effort that had gone into the place.

I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about keeping this off for awhile, it's very different than having a topo that gets passed around. I'm all about spreading the word on new climbing, but when I saw this on here, my heart sank a little, knowing how special this place is. It's inevitably going to get more publicity and the character of the place will change, but certainly posting it up here will bring that end to fruition much sooner than later. Feb 24, 2012
BJ Sbarra,

keeping this off for awhile?? Until you die?

It has been awhile after putting up these routes that we posted them. We are not posting anything of yours nor posting anything someone else did.

Welcome to the internet. Who is in control? Cher?

It seems you think the limiting factor for how others venture is by what they have been told and so by this reasoning you can expect them to use no more than the routes we post. Feb 24, 2012
dennis, again, my request is not based on saving the area for myself so that others are unable to climb there. i don't get upset when i run into climbers at various unpublished areas. It doesn’t get my ‘hackles up’. I actually think it is pretty cool, usually.

My request is based on trying to leave a few areas out there where people can enjoy the search. Whether it be that they are tinkering with google earth during lunch at work, trying to find cliffs or a way to access them. Or, perhaps they caught a glimpse of some cliffs and found more details via word of mouth. Maybe they met up with a person to give them a tour and they ended up being lifetime friends and partners. Maybe they went up to a route that they knew nothing about, misjudged the rack, and had to push a green alien for 60 feet while their partner was so horrified that they couldn’t watch. There is a lot of satisfaction to these avenues. It would be kind of sad to eliminate these possibilities for people in the future. Feb 24, 2012
15K+ posts at the Taco and my first one here should indicate what I think of the guidebook syndrome.

Indian Creek, with paved access, has served as the guinea pig for our treatment of wingate sandstone. And our little lab animal is getting sick and worn out.

There are many wingate canyons left that are relatively inviolate and offer boundless adventure.

There are many BAD reasons for writing guidebooks, and few good ones when you look at what they do to an area.

"Man always kills the thing he loves."

Slowly but inexorably you are doing the same. Feb 24, 2012
I am just struck by the sloppy way you are exposing this area, misspelling on the map pic for one...

Charles Feb 24, 2012
Charles Michael,

Do you have a Map Reading Comprehension problem?

please consult the topo map for what the draw's name technically? has been. I have such a map on this opening page. Reading Comprehension? Feb 24, 2012
No reading comprehension issue, map says Hart and the photo caption says Hard... just saying...

Charles Feb 24, 2012
Hey Charles,

one techno issue is quite a problem for fastidious people here but thanks for pointing this typo out. I am certain there are more errors but then again if it is too sloppy I may not see you at the area--you may be lost? Feb 24, 2012
I can read a topo... if thats what you are asking...

Charles Feb 24, 2012
BJ Sbarra
Carbondale, CO
BJ Sbarra   Carbondale, CO
Great points Pete, but it's not without precedent for areas to be removed from MP, if the consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of it. My guess would be of all the people who have climbed here, most would rather it not be so visible. And as you say, not because of an elitist BS thing, but to preserve the character of the place. Feb 24, 2012
Im not bothered that the area has been put on the site. What bothers me is the laziness of how it was done.
Fair enough if you don't know the gear needed for routes you have not done but your gear descripitions for your new routes are lame. I mean come on, "some friends and maybe nuts" and "QDs and maybe a piece or two of gear" does not cut it.
Why the big hurry? Get it right the first time. Feb 24, 2012
I'm furious that this is on MP. Please take it off! Feb 24, 2012
Utah has an amazing obsession with "secret areas" that aren't secrets. As is evident here, there is a apparently an army of people that are mad that this closely held "secret" of theirs is out... Feb 24, 2012
There are some frets about the spelling of Hart Draw.

Here it is from San Juan County

San Juan County legal description Feb 24, 2012
nooky brown,

Gear Suggestions ?? I'm not your baby sitter. Feb 24, 2012

the folksy word used by San Juan County predates USGS mix-ups. Feb 24, 2012
Dennis, once you wrote all about your new routes on a public forum you have become a babysitter. You are now the keeper of the crag, responsible for the herds of climbers of all abilities who will now head up there because of you and only you.

Don't get all defensive, looks like im one of the few who is not all bent out of shape on this matter. I just don't understand why you kept the gear descriptions a mystery? its just a half ass job. Feb 24, 2012
Peter Gallagher,

are you trying to impose Federal Authority on what is a State's Right Domain? Feb 24, 2012
nooky brown,

The first guidebook I wrote was Free Climbs of Devil Tower which included gear suggestions.

My second guidebook was The Black Hills Needles: Selected Free Climbs and it did not include gear.

For the case of Hart Draw I no longer remember the gear as some of the climbs were done over 15 years ago.

I am not a German tabulator of all my life's details. For each climb we did at Hart Draw we decided what gear to take. If I were to give you all the details I would be selling the collection as a $50 climbing guidebook but I am giving you the directions on how to get there free. Yet, I am not posting to help you increase your onsight percentage.

My current feeling are less gear suggestions make for more commitment and engages you in making choices for controlling your life's outcomes. Personally I can go to an area not knowing the ratings or gear suggestions and just choose the climbs that look good. And be satisfied with the outcome. Feb 24, 2012
ryan laird
Denver, CO
ryan laird   Denver, CO
The USGS consistently used Hart Draw without the S starting from at least the 1920’s. USGS historical photos and the numerous mining claims consistently used Hart. Even the USGS 1954 7.5 Minute Carlisle 4 NE Quadrangle (printed in 1956 based on the imprint year) of the area used Hart. Historical references about Hart Draw have been given about the 1881 Pinhook Draw Massacre.

It appears that it wasn’t until around 1962 that the USGS started using Harts when they reprinted the 1954 15 Minute Harts Point Quadrangle. Since then, some sources use Hart, some use Harts, and some use a possessive Hart’s.

Perhaps it should be renamed Pete's-BJ’s-Nelson's Draw, so they can dictate who gets to use the public land. Feb 24, 2012
It is public land and I am not trying to stop someone from using public land. I was in favor of just keeping it quite so that it will not look like Super Crack Buttress on a weekend. Feb 24, 2012
Rename it Pete BJ's Nelson Draw

-Then after a year let's all get along and share the love and rename it Nelson BJ's Dennsi Draw. Feb 24, 2012
Oh, so your THAT Dennis Horning. I used your Devils Tower guide the first time I went there, it worked just fine.
You did not mention that it was over 15 years ago that you put these routes up. I will give you a pass on the gear thing this time :-) Feb 24, 2012
Seriously though, Just go climb and enjoy it. Don't bitch back and forth on a forum. Feb 24, 2012
Nelson Lunsford,

We are not giving away the whole canyon only an area where we put up 100% of the climbs.

If it's only a guidebook that brings 'em in, then your guidebook less portion of this area will remain your secret as there is no guidebook to bring 'em in.

Bathe in your logic until you understand your rationale transposed in time.

Get this clear: I am not giving your area away--you just have taken the size of it for more than you can maintain. Feb 24, 2012

I have passed up some of what might have been others highpoints--a webbing knot-jammed in a crack with a lowering carabiner. These were not at the end of my lead. These climbs at the mouth are not in the this guide.

Okay, I am not absolutely certain but very certain there were no previous assents within the region on the lines that I have posted. The reason is continual impassable debris along these lines. We did a lot of cleaning and pendulum swings to loosen these hair-triggered sitting rocks out of our passage way. Two other things come to mind: NO webbing and no Scratched stones.

You don't own the turf nor do you manage it.

As for credit of my accomplishments I may have posted this autonomously if I could have. And if I would have posted it anomalously I would have been called coward--how weird?

Get this clear: I am posting this because other people have done similar acts of good will to me by posting what they have worked on.

Just remember, I am not your husband that has to listen to you whine. Feb 24, 2012
the application of the land dilemma story of the commons to Hart Draw by Hardin fails to meet all the criteria as specified by that author. Hardin builds his case on a pasture of fixed size.

Surely Indian Creek is "overgrazed" but even a libertarian rancher knows that to prevent overgrazing either you reduce the herd or get more land. As climbers we have more land to lessen the overgrazing but somefolks want to keep us corralled. Feb 24, 2012
It has been way too long, good to hear you are doing well! Welcome to the jungle............ Feb 24, 2012
Mystery of the Desert,

thanks for edit and double edit but could you get something that applies to the reason stated below?

I am posting this because other people have done similar acts of good will to me by posting what they have worked on. Feb 24, 2012
James Garrett,

a long time-- I have ask Freddie about you occasionally. Your wife had an accident but is okay? I hope. Feb 24, 2012
ryan laird
Denver, CO
ryan laird   Denver, CO
Mystery of the Desert, it’s no mystery that you deleted your elitist comments supporting censoring of crag information, because you came across as completely uninformed. The only mystery is why you joined MP 3 hours ago and are unwilling to put your name behind your comments.

As I previously posted, the issue boils down to two perspectives. Some individuals that discovered the area or were invited to be part of a supposed elite group feel OWNERSHIP of the area and want to exclude most people. Other individuals that discovered the area feel that the climbing is worth sharing with a larger community. The elitists will whimper and cry foul immediately, but the larger community that experiences the climbing will ultimately decide the issue as they enjoy using THEIR public land. And comparing Hart Draw to the issues of the Super Crack Buttress is complete exaggeration. The 4WD road and longer approach hikes of Hart Draw make a huge difference. Feb 25, 2012
Perin Blanchard
Orem, UT
Perin Blanchard   Orem, UT  
I deleted "Mystery of the Desert's" comments. Drive-by anonymous cowards have no place in this conversation. Feb 25, 2012
Charles Vernon
mind & body in Colorado, he…
Charles Vernon   mind & body in Colorado, he…
I've been following this conversation with interest.

While I realize MP.com reserves the right to delete anything for any reason, what guideline did "Mystery of the Deadline" violate? He wasn't any more insulting that anyone else on this thread (probably less) or than a thousand other posts that have not been deleted.

Is simply posting anonymously (without being a "jerk" or a "troll") now a criteria for deletion? Feb 25, 2012
Charles Vernon,

Again, the adminsistrators words, Drive-by anonymous cowards have no place in this conversation.

I take it drive-by means someone who has just open an account to shoot off their mouth anonymously.

The particular picture that Mystery of Desert created(deleted yesterday) with his wording was an allusion to the (his envisioned) similarity of raping a woman as to how he felt about what we were doing to him by posting this climbing area.

I do agree with Perin Blanchard that metaphoric scenes of this sort have no sensible or meaningful place in this discussion. It was a disgusting post and maybe more so for women readers.

Charles, if you did not see this you may lack some literary envisioning skills. Feb 25, 2012
user id
user id   SMOGden, UT
The more crap you wankers give Dennis about posting this area, the better his topos get... Feb 26, 2012
Meeting the Redds

Zach and I were driving out of Hart Draw to meet Sander Pounder. She did not want to drive the 4WD section alone. Arriving at our pre arranged spot on the Hart Draw 2-track was a Dodge Power Wagon hooked to a big horse trailer, 2 dogs, 3 saddled horses outside grazing, one man and two women. They exuded a very suspicious look at us as our nearness to them minimized with our passing. So we continued to the other side of the ditch by using an easy all ready established alternate to what had been a washout.

They were oddly parked in the middle of the washed out part of the road. Yet the horse trailer tail gate hinge was at ground level. But certainly horses can step down from a normal height horse trailer? As our side tracking around them continued we could see that the big rig’s tires had milled into the dirt so much that the cab door bottom was at ground level too. Was all this effort to back the horse trailer end to ground level?

Were we obviously a couple of hippies that knew nothing? We slowly approached them and my opening line was, ”It looks like a lot of effort to get the tailgate even with ground level so the horse do not have to step down.” It was obvious that the foreman had driven off the washout cliff while they were leaving the draw. No reply from the ranch woman nor the foreman but the articulate German woman spoke up and affirmed my intuitions of the situation. The silence was now broken but the foreman just about to mount the horse, refused an offer of help saying the GMC would never be able to pull him out and he rode away.

Maybe he had forgotten something? He was returning. Tersely, upon riding up to me he said, “I will take a ride out.” My reply, “We are waiting for someone here, but before we give you a ride we will try pulling you out.” As the exchange continued I realized this was a mule on a horse’s back. The cowgirl woman was carefully listening to the ensuing verbal exchange of why it was worth a try vs. why it would never work but said nothing. Finally she quietly suggested maybe it was worth a try as they had to get the German story writer back on her way.

To start the towing process I carefully began tying my two 20 ft towing recovery straps together all within the ambience of hearing comments like you gonna bun up dat tranmission, tain’t gonna work. My last words to the foeman was, “I want the wheels of this pickup spinning before that tow line gets tight. I suspect the German woman thought, "a couple of loggerheads."

Now the Safari’s high performance engine could get the pulling rig going faster than a horse accelerates in that mere 40 feet. The war faring catapult is not used nowdays. But catapulting would have been my choice for a verb used to describe the recovery. Zach realizing where the pride was yelled to the Dodge dismounting foreman, “How do like that a GMC pulls a Dodge out?” There was only one genuine effort needed to change what had been the clash of two non reconciling forces.

Sandy arrived. The ranch woman approached and in warm tones said, “I want that dog, I’ll turn him into a cowdog.” It was my aussie and I laughed. She ask, “What brings you guys out here?” “We’re climbing the walls at the end of the Hart Draw 2-track”, I replied in a low matter-of-fact tone. Now her interest in us perked up. A discussion followed. Her parting lines,”I wish you would get those climbs published, I am tired of so many climbers around the ranch house. They could all be in Hart Draw and I would not care.”

Then at parting time

she thanked us in a gracious manner.

For she was Mrs Redd. Feb 26, 2012
Charles Vernon
mind & body in Colorado, he…
Charles Vernon   mind & body in Colorado, he…

I definitely lack literary envisioning skills. I don't even know what they are.

Perin didn't say anything about any metaphoric scenes so I'm not sure how you could agree with him about that. Do you lack reading comprehension skills? Or was this a "literary envisioning" of what Perin was actually trying to say?

Up til now, "being a jerk" has always been a criteria for post deletion on MP.com but to my knowledge "being a drive-by anonymous coward" by itself has never been. Anonymous posters have contributed a lot to this site, when they're not being jerks or trolls. Just trying to get some clarification as I was planning on opening a number of anonymous accounts soon.

I won't hijack this topic any further, as I said I'm interested in the core discussion and that was why I became concerned about voices being silenced (what side of this debate is Perin on?). Feb 26, 2012

i have never met Perin. he seems rather terse. We have no conspiracy agreement.

Again, Mystery of Desert's post was disgusting. However feel free to write as you please for I see he is back.

A consideration for your time invested, I am the editor of this[hart Draw] site and unless from powers out of my control i will choose if it gets deleted.

I suspect Perin had a similar interpretation to Mystery's words as I did, but why bother justification with rephrasing the sickening details? Mystery knows what he was trying to achieve and how.

I will not bother with the graphic details either.

I would rather be climbing. And you? Feb 26, 2012
BJ Sbarra
Carbondale, CO
BJ Sbarra   Carbondale, CO
I'm working on getting your $2000. How do you want it, in $20's? Feb 26, 2012
Dennis Horning,

On the buttress pictured on MP, we put up a couple of lines on the left side of it in about 1991. We did not name them, of course. We also put one up called 'Motor Killer' on the right side of that buttress but much further back in the canyon (way right). We walked under all of the climbs that you established before they were established. I thought we would get to them eventually, but you beat us to it mainly because my partner was interested in doing obscure lines that forced us to walk all over the place. I'm glad that you got to do the climbs; I certainly do not feel robbed. I was very curious who did those climbs.

I'm not as furious as last week. It subsides rather quickly! My whole issue has to do with not wanting to climb around a lot of people. I was hoping that the Indian Creek crowd and masses would not find Harts Draw. While the place can handle more people, it sure was nice to never see anyone at all. I view MP as the exact forum that will bring in more people, so as Pete says, "Harts Draw will now be a different place." Feb 27, 2012

thanks for the inclusion of your history as to how our aspirations unfolded in this canyon of desertion. Evidence of past climbs here and there but never anyone else on the walls was the status quo. Feb 28, 2012
Salt Lake City, Utah
BobGray   Salt Lake City, Utah
Bravo on publishing this area!!!

I know the feeling of getting fallout on publishing areas as I have fallen victim to it myself. My mantra is to not publish an area until I am finished or almost finished developing it.

I do understand not wanting to attract the climbing hoards, especially the hoards that come along with Indian Creek. I honestly don't like sharing my climbing experience with anyone I don't already know. I kinda hate crowds so I tend to put routes in very remote areas to avoid them.

Having said that I really feel the entire climbing community should get the opportunity to check it out, though it sometimes hurts when someone tells you your baby is ugly, but hey it's the Interwebs what else would you expect! Feb 28, 2012
That sh!! is funny. "Both" users, Mystery of the Desert and Pete Gallagher, pulled there posts and user name photos the same day. Dennis Horning just argues and insults anyone that posts, even if they agree with him. Rlaird quotes 1950s topos out of his a$$ trying to justify changing the name to Hart Draw. And both Slim and Dave Kalous hav posted MP information on Harts Draw before ... Tune in for another episode of Grumpy Old Men Getting Their Panties in a Twist. Go have a beer together and go climbing. Feb 28, 2012
Other Secret Climbs of Harts Draw
May the Fours Be With You, 5.8, 40ft, Scritchfield, Gallagher. Another slabby wide crack that has four 1/4inch bolts protecting the route.

Tecumseh Compressor Route, 5.9, A0, 300ft, Lamont and Tonelly. Good route to return to yor Jeep parked on Harts Point, named after the Tecumseh-brand compressor used to drill the 100 bolts on the bolt ladder. The compressor was left hanging on the side of the cliff. Please don't disturb it since it is now a historical artifact.

Dev el Nagre, 5.8, 60ft, Lamont and Dave. Loose crack. Lamont couldn't decide if his Mexican gardner was Indian or African American. Unfortunately Dave did not have gear beta for the climb. He's buried at the base of the climb.

Motor Killer, 5.7, 70ft, Lumsofrd, Gallagher. Killed the drill installing 14 bolts beside the crack.

200 Other Climbs, Long, and Hard, Gallagher and Friends. 200 Other Climbs goes up ... and I'm not going to tell you about them because I don't want to see you. Feb 28, 2012

welcome to the 3 ring circus. Keep those posts coming I like 3rd party views on this Tea House chat room.

I recently made this post on ST but it is applicable here too:

For some, ST is an all day tea house in which each little voice can speak any insanity it wishes and thus satisfy that vocie's urge to be heard without much condemnation. And they can move on to another room in the tea house quite easily for other topics and other listeners.

Well, I can put up with most ST and Mp users because it is this kind of sense and non sense that I get firsthand at every climbing area. And so it is with each of you as a fellow travelers on a similar road. You too have your good points. Feb 28, 2012
hmmm, i think stating that i have posted MP info on hart's draw is kind of stretching it a bit, but whatever. basically a post naming 2 routes that i did there in a '10 best list of the year', with no other info. Feb 28, 2012
i found bob gray's comment interesting. it sounds like he is saying that he keeps an area secret (because he doesn't like seeing other people there) until he has finished developing the area, and then puts out the info. i'm not sure how this is different than people being selfish about keeping an area to themselves. Feb 28, 2012
Slim, I didnt say you posted the details of those climbs. That's why I had to, hopefully I got the details right. :-)

The fact of the matter is that Harts Draw was readily available in guidebooks since Bjornstadt's 1988 Desert Rock. Just the actual name Harts Draw had not been posted. Feb 28, 2012
BJ Sbarra,

where's the money? Feb 28, 2012
jayJ, can you be more specific about the guidebook info? offhand i can't think of anything other than a general statement like "around the corner is hart's draw, happy exploring" sort of comment (in the IC book). Feb 28, 2012
(I know this is long, but my "fans" on MP expect nothing less!)

Wow, I just got done researching the online banter about Cerro Torre for an interview with Hayden Kennedy and the tone was disheartening to say the least. But this one is a rival because its is a one man show over here.

Its true that all of us who have user names at MP are hypocrites for not wanting Hart(s) Draw on the site. I, for one, never said Mr. Horning couldn't (or shouldn't) put it here. My first comment was referring to the idea that I figured somebody out there was gonna do it some day and the tension was mounting. I was joking, Dennis. Kind of a wink and a nod because you must have known that others were active out there in Hart(s) Draw and had been absent from MP for a reason. I've actually mentioned it in a number of off topic posts, as have others. So part of you must have known there would be protest. Although, your replies on this thread seem to indicate that your connection to the Indian Creek community is through very thick skin indeed so perhaps other's feelings about the area never did occur to you. Or, and I think unbalanced vitriol from the get-go on your part shows this, you were rearing for a fight. I can't exactly fault you for this as I've started my own pissing contests now again on MP, too.

I believe Mr. Horning has every right to put Hart(s) Draw on MP. BJ and I saw the routes in "Little Italy" a couple years ago and wondered who had put them up . So now I know. And that's really what this site is for.

Although, I'm sure glad now that Mr. Horning was not there when we were. Friendly banter doesn't seem his strong suit.

As to the Hart Draw vs. Harts Draw vs. Hart's Draw. I take your insult in stride, Dennis, but I insist that the map, which I had my mommy read for me, doesn't matter. The USGS calls Standing Rock the Totem Pole, Castleton is Castle Rock, the Titan is Fisher Tower and so on, but climbers and locals often have different names for places than the Federal Government. The USGS still calls Denali, Mt. McKinley. Sam Lightner, who researched Moab place names for his book Roads Through Time mostly by interviewing locals like the Redds, establishes that the locals have always called it Harts Draw. Climbers who started establishing routes in the area 20+ years ago called (and call) it Harts Draw. The road through the Abajos that starts on top is called Harts Draw Road. The only dispute may be the grammar- since it was named after a "rancher" who tried to live there for a short time in the late 1800s, it should probably show the possessive. But most references do not use the apostrophe- so much for Utah schools. Though, I think the apostrophe is clunky, too.

It seems reasonable that in an effort to keep MP mistake free, the name should be changed to match the traditional usage. That's all, Dennis, no slight on your map reading skills. If you can find as many references to "Hart" as "Harts" then so be it, stick with Hart. That or we put the lost "S" on Indians Creek, and we sell the apostrophe to Hole n" the Rock as they seem to like to throw around punctuation willy nilly.

I think that despite this post, Hart(s) Draw will mostly remain empty. Its a pain in the ass to get there, its certainly not as stacked as Indian Creek as all of the explorers represented here know, and so on. I have a project back there that's near some plum new routes to do, and I can hardly get people to leave behind the convenience of a Broken Tooth to 4X4 an extra hour into an unknown area that has fewer decent routes in its entirety than on the left side of the Cat Wall. Anybody who has seen the route "WOW" in Hart(s) will rave about how cool it looks. My reply, "yeah, but its a long way to go for one 120' pitch of 5.10" because like much of Hart(s), the next route worth doing is a half a mile away.

Yeah, Little Italy looks really good for Hart(s) but it would still be a fair to middlin wall if it was in the Creek- something akin to Sparks or the Public Service. By the way, nice work on the steel anchors, Dennis. More route developers should take that to Hart (ha, get it?) But most of the walls have a few good routes few and far between with a handfull of what would constitute filler in Indian Creek in the middle. I know. I've walked both sides from the Needle(s) Overlook all the way to that funky ice climb hole near Wind Whistle and back. We all get attached to routes and areas we've personally developed, but face it, Hart(s) has a few pure splitters and a lot of walking between junk.

I guess that's why I thought maybe everyone would resist the temptation to put Hart(s) up on MP because the sole reason in my mind to climb in Hart(s) is for the empty atmosphere and the potential for adventurous new routes. Neither of those characteristics benefit from publicity. If you want really good crack climbing, then save your chassis and stop at Super Crack as virtually any wall in Indian(s) Creek is going to have more, better routes than any wall in Hart(s) Draw. I guess I assumed that even that formerly unknown person who put up those routes in "Little Italy" went all the way in there because it wasn't the circus (which I actually enjoy sometimes) of the Creek or Creek Pasture. I'm sure that the mostly very civil appeals on this thread (met by mostly uncivil replies) are based on that same idea. Peter Gallagher sent me a similarly civil appeal years ago and we came to an understanding privately. It was pleasant.

I guess many are now wondering about the clash between what we had assumed must have been the spirit of Mr. Horning's original motivations to go so far afield in Hart(s), and the desire to now bring publicity to that quiet place. It just doesn't jibe with the few users that have spent time back there. Mr. Horning's' replies have not helped the understanding. I don't think there is anything to understand, really. My only guess is that Dennis' experiences in Hart(s) Draw were different from ours. He has a right to those experiences.

I also reiterate that I believe Mr. Horning has a right to post, and MP users are at least somewhat hypocritical to protest. And yet, we have a right civilly protest despite the hypocrisy and to at least to openly lament Mr. Horning's decision. Although, our lamentation is just making it worse, as these comments have drawn more attention than the post alone would have!

Those who would state that its elitist to keep Hart(s) Draw off MP miss the point. I am happy to tell others about my experiences there as they have been special. The desire to keep it quiet is not selfish, rather I sympathize with those that find the Creek proper too crazy or far more crowded than the "old days", and I've often said "I've got your medicine, if you want to work for it. Its Harts Draw." We've sacrificed the Creek to the alter of popularity. Why not let Hart(s) Draw stand as the antithesis for those who put in the work to find a more pristine experience? Ironic that climbers in the Creek are clawing up and down the same walls, just on the opposite side.

Anyway, the genie is out of the bottle, and frankly, despite the criticism of his initial decision, I don't think Mr Horning or the admin should delete it. Now the rest of us will have to decide wether or not to post what we know. I suspect it will trickle in. I, for one, am going to hold off for a bit, if for no other reason now than to avoid the attack. But if anyone would care for some info, I'd be happy to share word of mouth, as I always have concerning Harts Draw. Does that make me a hypocrite? Perhaps. But it also makes me friends. Besides, I need a fucking belayer on the project- I'm this close...this close! Feb 29, 2012
BJ Sbarra
Carbondale, CO
BJ Sbarra   Carbondale, CO
It's being held up at the border, you wanted that in Canadian, right? If you prefer Pesos I can probably get those a lot faster... Feb 29, 2012
chris Kalous,

thanks for the thoughtful & humorous post, especially the dropped S on Indians Creek.

Perhaps I am 51-49 on what to do with this post but I do like to put up good and reasonable refutations to those that challenge and yet I do write with a tone.

Deleting this post is not just simply the flick of the "delete area" tab. MP will not allow any deletion after anyone else has put up a post to it of any sort. But perhaps this removal could be done through the Utah MP administration.

Certainly I am not the custodian of this Utah turf-never was & never will be. If I were to be consistent in a like manner to what I have said about people adding bolts to my routes I would simply exonerate myself and say anyone now can decide how they want to manage 'em. Here is that bolt wording from a forthcoming Black Hills Needles Guide by Andrew Busse:

But I here make the declaration that if a climb of mine needs more protection than what clean climbing affords, then, a well placed bolt may appear and not rumble my tombstone or hurt my feelings.

In other words I do not want any historical possession of manner and method. But in the Black Hills I made some marks on the rocks--with top anchors and in line bolts. I will let posterity manage this as they see fit. I said nothing as to how this management happens. These ad hoc managers could be adding or chopping the bolts as we speak.

Also I made some marks on the Utah MP site Harts Draw Little Italy canyon. Again I will say I will let posterity manage this site as they see fit. I will say nothing as to how this management manifests itself since I think the use of "should" implies an ethical ought.

I realize that these two situations are quite asymmetrical in how you would eradicate them. Pete G ( I hope he can laugh at this) could wield a chisel to chop the routes' bolts and cover up the scars with goo. And as for the MP post I can hint that somehow in the story One Hundred Years of Solitude the old folk's city vanished leaving no trace--A great story with some divine-like intervention? Don't fool yourself this is possible in Utah.

Now posterity may begin immediately their management of this MP site. But instead of using the title that Marquez used we could call this Twenty Days of Exposure and then delete it?

But any and every word that I choose for an adjective to describe what I would like in this process is loaded. "Fair, right, proper, considerate, expeditious, good" etc are words that send the process in certain directions. Recall from One Hundred Years of Solitude that late in the story the young innocent beautiful girl ascents to Heaven--simply gone. Now for me, you can expect that I have vanished from Utah--simply gone. But the stupid, rebellious, inconsiderate old fart rappelled into Hell instead. So I'm gone, its up to U. Feb 29, 2012
Jesse Zacher
Grand Junction, Co
Jesse Zacher   Grand Junction, Co  
The Mystery of the Desert's post sounds a lot like the vitriol I recieved from one Albert Newman when I posted an area... I have much empathy for Dennis's reasoning and comments! Mar 5, 2012
m-earle   USA
On my USGS map of Canyonlands, this canyon is called 'Harts Draw'

m Mar 14, 2012
Andrew Gram
Salt Lake City, UT
Andrew Gram   Salt Lake City, UT  
As the admin for the Utah desert, i'd like to keep Harts Draw posted. The world didn't end when directions to the Horn showed up on the site, and I doubt it has seen any more traffic because of it either.

Most people that climb in the desert don't want adventure - they want Castleton Tower, Ancient Art, Owl Rock, Potash Road, and Indian Creek. It won't matter a lick for 95% of climbers out there that Harts is posted. Hell, even a place way more accessible and stacked with routes like the Buckhorn Wash doesn't get all that much traffic. I really don't think the crowds will overrun this place.

What posting the info can do is prevent more bolts sprouting up where they shouldn't. I was climbing at a really remote place in the desert last weekend, and we ended up putting in an anchor half way up a very long pitch that had been climbed before because the anchor was logical, there was no sign the pitch had been climbed past that(we did find a bail piece very low on the route), the high anchor was invisible from the ground, and no info was ever posted about it. Oops. Mar 15, 2012
Devin Fin
Devin Fin   DURANGO
What? I understand all the hoopla about"everybody's" secret crag haters draw or what ever you want to call it . But I think everyone posting on this one crag is kind of counterproductive... We are all guilty of spraying to our friends we climb with in the creek about how sick it is "out thear" so let it ride... all desart rats ..... Enjoy the cheese Mar 17, 2012
Mark P Thomas
Mark P Thomas   Draper
You sure got my attention. I couldn't believe there would be so many beta posts over just 1 month! :-) Mar 17, 2012
Timmamok n/a   none
Harts Draw Apr 4, 2012
Josh Janes    
I've never climbed there, but have hoped to make the time for years now. Eventually I will. I also love finding out beta on new (for me) areas and climbs to go check out - usually through photos or posts on the internet.

When the info's not readily available, I usually ask questions, use google satellite imagery, and just go out there in person and explore. This is a lot more work and often results in adventure or wild goose chases, but there is reward in that too. I always thought Harts Draw would be that kind of place, until now.

I would like this area removed - for precisely the same reasons as Slim and many of the same reasons as Chris.

PS: While I see Andrew's point about the value of documenting areas to reduce the number of bolts or erroneous FA claims, I think that only happens in a very small number of cases and is not really a strong justification for putting Harts Draw into the public domain. May 5, 2012
Just comes down to ego

Dude wants the world to know he's been establishing routes. May 30, 2014

my ego tells me the other side is insecure-uninformed control freaks that are not in control on this matter. If you guys really don't want to see this area not used why not form a pact in which members vow not to go into this area? But you lame hearts choose to use this internet instrument as the perpetrator for the shortfall of your grandiose views of preservation. Get some balls you weenies and act.

Cheers to Free Speech,

Dingus Jun 11, 2014
Bill Mustard
Silt, CO
Bill Mustard   Silt, CO
wow lots of back and forth on this one. Cant make up my mind given im 98 and confined to an apartment above silt's community center. Jan 30, 2019