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By Mark Mueller
From Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 1, 2012
Great quality rock on this one!

Is this anchor ok? I used it to rap/TR solo a bunch of routes today. I saw some other guy using it and thought it was the simplest, easiest anchor to build.



...and yes, that's a Moosejaw sweatshirt laid over the edge...


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By Mark Mueller
From Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 1, 2012
Great quality rock on this one!

I later went on to build this anchor losing confidence in the first...


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By fat cow
From Salinas, CA
Feb 1, 2012
perfect seam

static rope is bomber, as long as its bomber condition wise, and that looks fine. im trying to conceptualize the second one, how was it made? dog earred figure eight i think, then you wrapped the tree twice and then...


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By Mark Mueller
From Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 1, 2012
Great quality rock on this one!

It is a great static 11.6 line by Bluewater. With Anchor #2 I wrapped the tree twice, tied it just like a cordelette with the backup overhand on one strand. Then made a bight with 4 strands and overhanded it pulling the slack end over the bight before clipping opposing locking biners to the anchor. I like the 2nd better but it also takes longer to build.


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By Yarp
Feb 1, 2012

That first one is text book. Bombzer. As long as the tree is solid.

The second one was a good experiment and would work fine but way to complicated with unnecessary shit cluttering it up.

Keep is simple.

If you're asking this kind of a question about an anchor I'd be a bit curious to see what kind of rig you're using for TR soloing?


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By Mark Mueller
From Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 2, 2012
Great quality rock on this one!

Trango Cinch device to TR solo up and ATC Guide with auto-block for rapping down.


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By Buff Johnson
Feb 2, 2012
smiley face

either one is fine


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By bergbryce
From South Lake Tahoe, CA
Feb 3, 2012

One thing worth mentioning I think....
Over time, a tree can be damaged or killed from being used as a climbing anchor. I don't mention this as an over the top tree-hugger, rather because damaging or killing trees are the types of impacts land managers can point to to close climbing areas. I'd also not like to see otherwise healthy trees get killed.

In desert areas, trees are particularly "valuable" resource. There aren't as many trees to begin with and it takes a lot longer to grow a mature tree than in wetter climates.
I'm not saying I've never anchored directly off a tree, I certainly have, many times, but there are ways to protect a tree trunk from excessive damage. One is by adding some bolts, others have in-situ webbing which seems to reduce rubbing on the bark some, I've added branches around the trunk before too. Takes a bit longer to set up the anchor, but does protect the trunk some.


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By BScallout
Feb 3, 2012

bergbryce wrote:
One thing worth mentioning I think.... Over time, a tree can be damaged or killed from being used as a climbing anchor. I don't mention this as an over the top tree-hugger,


bergbryce wrote:
One is by adding some bolts, others have in-situ webbing which seems to reduce rubbing on the bark some, I've added branches around the trunk before too. Takes a bit longer to set up the anchor, but does protect the trunk some.


Contradiction? yeah thats what I thought. Tree Hugger.


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By bergbryce
From South Lake Tahoe, CA
Feb 3, 2012

What are you trying to call me out on?? I called out my own contradiction in my post.
We'd love to hear your suggestions.


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By Tyson Anderson
From Las Vegas, NV
Feb 4, 2012
Rapping from the top of Cat in the hat

First one is better as the full wrap spreads the force around the whole tree.


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By Dan L
From Moab, UT
Feb 4, 2012
First Ascent

Mark Mueller wrote:
Tight or loose wrap? Tight for safety of climber and loose for safety of tree?


Tight or Loose? Both safe for a person; being cinched MIGHT have a higher load capacity, but nothing significant for only body weight. Being loose is the only chance for the tree.. Being a Botany major, if you cinch the rope completely around the tree, this will eventually cut-off the vascular Phloem, resulting in the tree becoming decadent and less likely to hold a person. If putting high loads or just for the higher comforting-mental state, where the "cinched down" method will be used, then use a piece of carpet in between the rope and the tree to prevent this problem.

Plus, the carpet method will preserve the life of the anchor.


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By prod.
From Boulder, Co
Feb 4, 2012

All you need is a no-knot knot.


no knot.
no knot.


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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Feb 4, 2012
Imaginate

prod. wrote:
All you need is a no-knot knot.


That looks terrible for the tree, it rubs all the way around the tree and relies on cinching and friction to hold it.


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By Eli Helmuth
From Estes Park, CO
Feb 4, 2012
Eli on the FA of Grizzly (M9) at the Den.

use a tree further from the edge, that thing's barely attached. Doesn't matter how big it is but how well rooted in good soil - that thing looks ready to fall down.


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By Louis Eubank
From Boston, MA
Feb 4, 2012

+1 on Eli's comment.

When we were training for high angle rescue stuff @ UMaine, we did a lot of wrap three, pull two anchors w/ one inch webbing. Wrap the webbing around the tree three times, making sure to lay the webbing flat against the trunk. Then tie a water knot between the two ends of the webbing, and have the knot facing in line with the climb. Pull the other two loops out until your knot is sitting snugly against the bark. The benefit's are that as your load shifts, it doesn't shift the webbing, (which girdles trees over time). This all takes a bit more time, but protects the tree, and it's nice to top out and immediately see that your water knot is still peachy.

One way to protect against Eli's concern is to connect that tree to multiple trees. Any time you are dealing with serious forces (trail crew, rescue, really fat in-laws), pick your anchor and do a wrap three pull two as low as you can at the base. Then go to the next tree back, sling that low, and connect that to your primary/initial anchor tree up high (4-5' above your initial anchor). Tighten w/ a trucker's hitch (tie a slip knot and put the free end through the loop, gives you an instant 3x - 1x, not including added friction). Continue as many times as needed. Might seem silly to practice these skills, but they're amazing to have in your toolbox. I got several students over a flash-flooding river w/ a Tyrolean, and my biggest anchor tree was in loose sand, about 4" in diameter.

Like I said, time consuming, and DFL on the list generally, but I've been grateful several times for knowing how to do it.


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By climbamt
Feb 5, 2012

Eli Helmuth wrote:
use a tree further from the edge, that thing's barely attached. Doesn't matter how big it is but how well rooted in good soil - that thing looks ready to fall down.

+1


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By prod.
From Boulder, Co
Feb 5, 2012

Eli Helmuth wrote:
use a tree further from the edge, that thing's barely attached. Doesn't matter how big it is but how well rooted in good soil - that thing looks ready to fall down.


You've got to be kidding?

David Appelhans wrote:
That looks terrible for the tree, it rubs all the way around the tree and relies on cinching and friction to hold it.


I would think this has less impact on the tree than the standard 1" webbing looped around the tree. What else would you recommend? Note this is for a temporary anchor.

Prod.


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Feb 5, 2012
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

a small piece of carpeting works really well to pad trees. Or you can get an Edge protector from PMI if you want to spend money. What kind of knot are you using in the 2nd anchor? A better knot to use would be an alpine butterfly. No reason for the double figure 8 either.

Really all this discussion is stupid, there are 100 different ways to make an anchor that will be sufficient. The real question should be is it strong enough and the answer is yes. Is it the most simple? No. Will it kill the tree? Probably in time.

Climbing at devils lake and top roping there are a ton of trees people use for anchors. I had a small piece of carpet that worked great to protect the trees.


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By prod.
From Boulder, Co
Feb 6, 2012

Actually, but not that it matters, the no knot is the strongest knot as it does not reduce the strength of the rope at all..

Read about it if you care to,

www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Traverse.htm

Prod.


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Feb 6, 2012
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

prod. wrote:
Actually, but not that it matters, the no knot is the strongest knot as it does not reduce the strength of the rope at all.. Read about it if you care to, www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Traverse.htm Prod.


also more commonly referred to as a tensionless hitch if you want to use google.


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By Brian
From North Kingstown, RI
Feb 6, 2012

bergbryce wrote:
One thing worth mentioning I think.... Over time, a tree can be damaged or killed from being used as a climbing anchor.


As long as you use a couple or more wraps so that the rope isn't rubbing on the tree you will never kill a tree especially a big old one like that. There are trees at the top of popular climbing areas (Ragged Mtn, CT) that have been used extensively for 20 years as anchors and they have not died. Walking around the trees, to place anchors, is more harmful than wrapping them with rope. This is a lame argument used for years by people who want to justify convenience bolts.


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By -sp
From East-Coast
Feb 6, 2012
Buenos Dias!

I have nothing to add except that that is the best and most appropriate use for a Moosejaw hoody that I have seen to-date.


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By Paul Davidson
Feb 6, 2012

Eli Helmuth wrote:
use a tree further from the edge, that thing's barely attached. Doesn't matter how big it is but how well rooted in good soil - that thing looks ready to fall down.


There used to be a big ole gnarled aligator juniper at the top of Orange Out. Many folks had used it over the years for various anchors.

At some point (+10 yrs now at least), it ceased to be there...
The edge of the Overlook is not the most stable ground. (u related to Robert Mueller ?)


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By JRivers
From Flagstaff, Arizona
Feb 6, 2012

that tree is alive, big, and seems pretty solid. thats the tree above the trinities...

would you rappel/tr solo off a bowline with a safetyknot? how simple can we get?

a bowline would take 2 seconds setting up and super easy to take down...


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By Mark Mueller
From Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 6, 2012
Great quality rock on this one!

Not related to Robert Mueller. And it seems that the tensionless hitch is the simplest...


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