As I said, because people haven't lived it, they think it doesn't exist. There is also a difference between propaganda and first hand experience. When you see your grandfather dragged off to jail because he said he did not want to work on Sundays, it tends to stick with you. Seeing people shot because they are out past 9:00PM is not something you deal with here in America, but it happens when you got an effed up government, like communism. 1964? Try 1988, but the regime collapsed shortly after, so we got lucky.

China has been experiencing ridiculous industrial growth. It is expanding so fast and making so many communist leaders there so rich, they try to make it about as environmentally friendly and safe as Chernobyl just to keep attracting more manufacturers. China went from nothing to making more environmentally harmful by products than the USA. How did this happen? Because we didn't want to sharpen our pitchforks and do something about it when trade was opened with China. Kind of like how most people here in America stood by doing nothing when Bush was saying we should invade Iraq and now that the bandwagon has formed they're jumping fences and screaming "Pull out!" without thinking about the consequences. Off topic.

Sorry for the ranting but this particular subject gets me rather fired up, especially when someone says communism is nothing because to be honest that is about the same as telling a Jewish person the holocaust didn't happen.

BD's $.02

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your thoughtfully composed questions. In addition, I have
just read the thread on MountainProject and I am expanding upon your
questions so as to set the record straight for all those there. Everyone
is entitled to their own opinion, however it helps when they have the
facts vs. rumors to develop those opinions from.

Before addressing the more itemized claims it is important to note that
BD is 100% committed to building the finest climbing gear on the planet.
We go to great lengths to evaluate our processes in house and gain third
party certification to the extent that we lead the industry in this
regard. As a growing global brand, when we evaluate our production we
must be unbiased as to the best overall course of action in terms of
quality, cost and location. Our aim is to constantly improve our systems
and compromise nothing.

First off, it is important to understand that our manufacturing of
goods, specifically pro, is being done in OUR factory in China. This is
not an outsourced vendor operation. This is a Black Diamond built,
owned, and managed facility that is operated and staffed by Black
Diamond employees.

The BD team that got the operation going and is managing it has and/or
does include the former head of engineering and manufacturing of BD SLC,
the second in command of our QA department, our senior special project
guy, one of our lead process engineers and a host of other BD employees
(including myself) who have shuttled back and forth between BD Asia and
BD North America. For that matter, we have had BD Europe employees there
helping out as well. Conversely, we have had a steady flow of BD Asia
employees coming here to SLC to train.

Secondly, please understand that the testing equipment, testing
standards, and training have all come from BD USA and are managed by BD
SLC people at this time. For that matter, our BD facility just passed
its ISO-9001 audit that was performed by the same French Senior Auditor
from APAV-ASCERT that has been certifying our SLC operation for the past
half dozen years. He had nothing but compliments and we are THE first
company in our industry to have certification via a European certified
body.

Thirdly, understand that the supply chain of components and parts is the
same as it has been. The cams going onto the Camalots are made from
USA-produced7000 series aluminum, that are machined on our CNCs overseen
by our engineers; the anodizing is done by Easton Alumuinum here in SLC
and then they are shipped to our Asian facility. Cable, springs, and
other parts still come from here or from the same suppliers that we were
using when we were assembling them here. The supply chain is not
changed.

The Asian employees at BD's operation are well trained, dedicated, adult
professionals who work in a new, very modern facility that is the envy
of people in SLC. All of them who have worked for us get out climbing on
company trips and we have built a very large, climbing wall at the
facility that allows employees to climb at lunch and after work. Our
training and their dedication is nothing less than inspiring.

As you know, when you order an iPod or a PowerBook directly from Apple
it comes directly from their facility in China. If you are living in
Asia and purchase an Audi A4 or A6 it is being made in China and some of
the Euro luxury manufacturers are preparing to export their first
Chinese-made cars. Having climbed and worked in China, I can assure you
that the Chinese are a joy to climb with; take great pride in their
work; and are capable of great things. The question simply comes down to
management and ownership and the vision and commitment of those in
charge.

BD Asia shares BD's ethos, commitment to high quality, and they share
our passion for the life-defining activity of climbing. It is truly the
world's universal Esperanto a language we all not only speak but feel.
BD is a very global brand just like climbing and skiing are global
endeavors. For that matter, some of our fastest sales growth has been in
China and Asia as a middle class emerges and has time to explore the
beauty and challenge of Asia's crags and mountains. The marketplace
feels much like the U.S. felt like in the very late 60s and early 70s.
BD is committed to being global and to being an intimate and
contributing member of each climbing/ski community that we are a part
of. That is true in Europe as well.

So, this is not about shutting down BD SLC as a manufacturing facility,
to the contrary we have expanded our SLC facility this past year by 50
employees and we are fully maxed out, even with two full shifts. It's
about the right products in the right places with the right skill sets
and expertise, all by BD employees. We view this expansion very much as
an extension of what we are already doing. The processes, materials,
quality assurance are all the same. It's still Black Diamond.

Over the past year we have been assembling a large percentage of our ice
tools at BD China. Technical tools are done at both facilities currently
though they may shift fully to BD Asia. In addition, we are assembling
ATCs there and plan to slowly shift C3s there over time as well as some
other products. Many products will remain here while some will be done
at both facilities in future years. It is a work-in-process. It's
"generally"labor intensive assembly that is done at BD China. Quality
assurance is performed both in Salt Lake City and Asia by BD employees.
Regardless, it's still BD, and still being made by BD.

Finally you should be aware that the majority of our competitors are
having climbing hardware products made for them at OEM facilities in
Taiwan and China but they neither control nor manage these and most seem
to avoid country of origin labels by bringing the goods in via Europe or
claiming them as "sub-assemblies" (i.e. two carabiners that are clipped
to a draw are a sub-assembly and hence don't say they are made in China,
Taiwan or wherever and you are left thinking they are made in Europe).

As stated~WBD is proud to have created our own ISO-certified, owned,
staffed, managed and trained operation in Asia. Our customers are the
big beneficiaries here.

Thanks for the opportunity to state the facts,

THE EMPLOYEE OWNERS OF BLACK DIAMOND EQUIPMENT



Peter Metcalf

CEO/Co-Founder

Wow. I'd say you get a lot at BD for $.02!

Peter, thanks for your well-considered response. I remain a loyal customer!

From El Jeffe himself! Great response Peter!

Sounds like BD is saying "assembled in China" but out of american made components.

"China went from nothing to making more environmentally harmful by products than the USA. How did this happen?"

It happened because all our high worker risk, high pollution, high environmental cost manufacturing was moved to China. Maybe you were too busy getting clubbed by all those f&%king commies, but over here in the 80's the EPA was busy cleaning up toxic waste dumps and making this kind of manufacturing extremely beaurocratic and expensive.

JLP

It was great to hear Peter's take on the whole issue, and I feel very good about everything he had to say. But the one point he didn't address, perhaps inadvertantly, is how environmentally friendly the facility is. I presume, being the "envy of people in SLC", that environmental controls and measures have been put in place. In China, a country known for some of the worst environmental laws and some of the most egregious industrial pollution on the planet, there certainly wouldn't have to be any. But as BD appears to hold itself to a higher standard, and since their China facility seems to be used mainly for assembly, I'm guessing it's fairly benign. Somehow, though, I picture BD opening something more like a state-of-the-art eco-friendly plant in SLC (or anywhere for that matter) with solar panels and windmills on the roof... rather than just another factory in China. Perhaps I'm just being too idealistic or holding them to a higher standard. But as more and more companies make such changes (need I mention the current company of BD's founder - Patagonia?), I'm surprised BD isn't among them. Like everything else in business, I guess it all comes down to maximizing profits - and expanding the company in China, rather than SLC (which they could've done) is the quickest way to do just that. So when do we end-users get to share the benefits? Maybe Peter will take his $.02 and subtract it from the price of my next C3. Or is that how much it costs to make it in China? ;)

"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
- E. Abbey

What a discussion.

I see a lot of excellent points and thoughts (that vary) coming out of this thread.

For the past 8 years, I have worked with teams that were both US and overseas. Not manufacturing, none in China, but nonetheless - folks in second world countries. My PERSONAL overall observation/opinion, from a business perspective is that growing companies that do not adapt to global business practices have little chance of success; instead they will FAIL and SHRIVEL UP. Why??? I believe this is because those companies who DO adapt to a global business model (and I don't mean just the sales territory) will be able to offer a better VALUE product for the MASSES that generate substantial DEMAND, putting the non-global company out of business.

Now, that being said, I don't approve of blind outsourcing to China or any country with ongoing and publicly known labor and environmental issues. However, I do want to see Black Diamond Equipment (a US company that I think has a history of fine craftsmanship, products, QC, etc...) succeed. 'Success' then means funneling money back to the US while sustaining a certain level of employment for folks in the states.

IMO, if there are companies that can offer RESPONSIBLE GLOBAL CORPORATE CITIZENSHIP, then hopefully BD is one of those. Clearly, they are concerned with maintaining a much tighter grip on what exactly goes on in their manufacturing process, as it sounds as if they own the facilities, pay the workforce directly, etc. As such, if BD has the head to say 'we will pay above average local wages to hire the best performers... and we also want to ensure they have good health benefits... and we are going to handle all QC internally (I'm sure this will still have challenges) ... and we will make our materials vendors prove to us that they are on the environmental cutting edge, or they don't get our desperately needed US $$$', then they probably could do it. It might not mean a huge cut in the price of gear to you and me, but it may make them a sustainable US business with a quality product who also has the opportunity to make a POSITIVE impact on the way business is conducted in China in the future.

The real question is... Will they?

Only a question Peter and the BD folks can answer, but at first glance it seems they are heading in the right direction. It is my personal hope that some of founder Yvonne Chouinard's environmental ideals of Patagonia are also with BD today.

As to Peter's response, it is a good explanation, but I kinda doubt he wrote that out in specific response to Daniel's e-mail. If so, then awesome -- but if I was CEO of a company and venturing into waters that would likely receive criticism, that response would have been carefully prepared by many folks a long time before the concept of 'Black Diamond, Made in China' was introduced to the public. Nonetheless, he did respond personally which is very notable.

I'd be interested to hear from BD of specific comments regarding environmental aspects in China -- in BD's current AND future model.

Just my $0.01

Terror rains drenchin', quenchin' tha thirst of tha power dons
That five sided fist-a-gon!

R.A.T.M.

Tony Bubb wrote:
I also want to be clear that there is not a single communist government in this world. The difference between a commuist government and the Holocaust is that there has been a Holocaust. There has never been a comunist government.

--> acedemic thought

• ***

I have often wondered, what ever happened to the person that stood down the tank column?

i'm not sure what my point is either...thugs bug me...i love bd cams.... guess its a 2 directional pull thang that i'm not smart enough to deal with. no offense to anyone. seriously.

he was soon never to be seen again. . . . I believe they took him away that day, and as I recall, was not returned (some documentary I watched).