"China went from nothing to making more environmentally harmful by products than the USA. How did this happen?"

It happened because all our high worker risk, high pollution, high environmental cost manufacturing was moved to China. Maybe you were too busy getting clubbed by all those f&%king commies, but over here in the 80's the EPA was busy cleaning up toxic waste dumps and making this kind of manufacturing extremely beaurocratic and expensive.

JLP

It was great to hear Peter's take on the whole issue, and I feel very good about everything he had to say. But the one point he didn't address, perhaps inadvertantly, is how environmentally friendly the facility is. I presume, being the "envy of people in SLC", that environmental controls and measures have been put in place. In China, a country known for some of the worst environmental laws and some of the most egregious industrial pollution on the planet, there certainly wouldn't have to be any. But as BD appears to hold itself to a higher standard, and since their China facility seems to be used mainly for assembly, I'm guessing it's fairly benign. Somehow, though, I picture BD opening something more like a state-of-the-art eco-friendly plant in SLC (or anywhere for that matter) with solar panels and windmills on the roof... rather than just another factory in China. Perhaps I'm just being too idealistic or holding them to a higher standard. But as more and more companies make such changes (need I mention the current company of BD's founder - Patagonia?), I'm surprised BD isn't among them. Like everything else in business, I guess it all comes down to maximizing profits - and expanding the company in China, rather than SLC (which they could've done) is the quickest way to do just that. So when do we end-users get to share the benefits? Maybe Peter will take his $.02 and subtract it from the price of my next C3. Or is that how much it costs to make it in China? ;)

"Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."
- E. Abbey

What a discussion.

I see a lot of excellent points and thoughts (that vary) coming out of this thread.

For the past 8 years, I have worked with teams that were both US and overseas. Not manufacturing, none in China, but nonetheless - folks in second world countries. My PERSONAL overall observation/opinion, from a business perspective is that growing companies that do not adapt to global business practices have little chance of success; instead they will FAIL and SHRIVEL UP. Why??? I believe this is because those companies who DO adapt to a global business model (and I don't mean just the sales territory) will be able to offer a better VALUE product for the MASSES that generate substantial DEMAND, putting the non-global company out of business.

Now, that being said, I don't approve of blind outsourcing to China or any country with ongoing and publicly known labor and environmental issues. However, I do want to see Black Diamond Equipment (a US company that I think has a history of fine craftsmanship, products, QC, etc...) succeed. 'Success' then means funneling money back to the US while sustaining a certain level of employment for folks in the states.

IMO, if there are companies that can offer RESPONSIBLE GLOBAL CORPORATE CITIZENSHIP, then hopefully BD is one of those. Clearly, they are concerned with maintaining a much tighter grip on what exactly goes on in their manufacturing process, as it sounds as if they own the facilities, pay the workforce directly, etc. As such, if BD has the head to say 'we will pay above average local wages to hire the best performers... and we also want to ensure they have good health benefits... and we are going to handle all QC internally (I'm sure this will still have challenges) ... and we will make our materials vendors prove to us that they are on the environmental cutting edge, or they don't get our desperately needed US $$$', then they probably could do it. It might not mean a huge cut in the price of gear to you and me, but it may make them a sustainable US business with a quality product who also has the opportunity to make a POSITIVE impact on the way business is conducted in China in the future.

The real question is... Will they?

Only a question Peter and the BD folks can answer, but at first glance it seems they are heading in the right direction. It is my personal hope that some of founder Yvonne Chouinard's environmental ideals of Patagonia are also with BD today.

As to Peter's response, it is a good explanation, but I kinda doubt he wrote that out in specific response to Daniel's e-mail. If so, then awesome -- but if I was CEO of a company and venturing into waters that would likely receive criticism, that response would have been carefully prepared by many folks a long time before the concept of 'Black Diamond, Made in China' was introduced to the public. Nonetheless, he did respond personally which is very notable.

I'd be interested to hear from BD of specific comments regarding environmental aspects in China -- in BD's current AND future model.

Just my $0.01

Terror rains drenchin', quenchin' tha thirst of tha power dons
That five sided fist-a-gon!

R.A.T.M.

Tony Bubb wrote:
I also want to be clear that there is not a single communist government in this world. The difference between a commuist government and the Holocaust is that there has been a Holocaust. There has never been a comunist government.

--> acedemic thought

• ***

I have often wondered, what ever happened to the person that stood down the tank column?

i'm not sure what my point is either...thugs bug me...i love bd cams.... guess its a 2 directional pull thang that i'm not smart enough to deal with. no offense to anyone. seriously.

he was soon never to be seen again. . . . I believe they took him away that day, and as I recall, was not returned (some documentary I watched).

"Not saying I support the Chinese government, but the record of the U.S. is full of atrocities at every turn as well, and we would do well to remember it." - Tavis (and many others in this forum)

We, America, have the best/cleanest human rights policies, and HISTORIES, than any other nation (I would argue).
It's so easy to take apart your own house. . . but do you really understand it's construction?

America did this, and America did that!! Oh the atrocities of America! Let's compare our policies and histories whenever we are presented with another countries present policies and actions.
Hell man, westerners traded slaves in the past, so we should allow other countries to do it today! I mean, what the hell, who do we think we are?!

Very immature method of reasoning, which isn't, in fact, reasoning at all. Any of you anti-Americans hear of the word, Growth? Maybe you progressives actually understand the meaning of , Progress?

Are some of you actually and honestly comparing American policy and history with Chinese? If not, then quit with the contrasting points.

BD is a sell-out. Simple. You can argue 'till you're blue in the balls, and point out Americas past atrocities if for some reason in some way this helps you and your twisted inability to reason. . . .
But facts are facts - and you'd do best to understand them.

You want success? Start at the bottom, and dig down.

In "Escape Routes" (by Dave Roberts) there is a chapter about being on an organized bicycle tour through China DURING the Tiananmen Square demonstrations. I'm not sure which was most chilling: The way the Chinese government washed it all away or the callous attitude of the Western tourists.

You can read the first few pages of the chapter if you search for the book on Google Books.

Being aware of your own flaws is neither immature nor anti-american. My point was that the cold war and the endless battle of capitalism vs communism resulted in terrible atrocities on both sides. The atrocities of the American government in the name of fighting communism perhaps resulted in less deaths, but when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of innocent people dead vs. millions, that's mass murder however you look at it. The fact that these crimes against humanity were usually committed on soil other than ours does not make the United States government any less responsible. So no, we don't have the cleanest record on human rights, not by a long shot. That title likely belongs to Switzerland.

Did BD "sell out" when moving to China? Probably. But so did any corporation that moved it's manufacturing overseas, or south of the border. Anyone want to go work in a maquiladora in Mexico? A factory in the Phillipines? A coal mine or soda factory in South America? The abuses of those workers rival those in China, and if you think that China is the only place that you can get killed for voicing your opinion, tell that to the Columbian union leaders that have been murdered by paramilitaries paid by Coca Cola, or Chiquita Banana, or Drummond Coal. Tell that to the indigenous people murdered and displaced by first-world resource extraction efforts like the Freeport copper mine in Irian Jaya, or by oil drilling in the Amazon.

Communism isn't what causes people to be repressed and abused. Greed is the reason, and greed exists in excess both in the U.S. and in China. We are lucky enough that we in this country enjoy the protection of the law, but those in other countries, whether it's China, Mexico, or Columbia, do not enjoy those protections, and they suffer from it. It doesn't matter whether the government is communist or not, nor whether they are a U.S. ally or not. If human rights abuses is what you are really concerned about, you would do well to avoid purchasing products from any country besides the U.S. or Europe. And hell, stop driving your car while you're at it.

China is undoubtable a shitty place to live and work. But we can't focus all of our attention there. We don't have the power to change the Chinese government, but we do have the power to influence corporate power and our own foreign policy, and there are plenty of places besides China that could use help.

TAVIS WROTE:
"The fact that these crimes against humanity were usually committed on soil other than ours does not make the United States government any less responsible. So no, we don't have the cleanest record on human rights, not by a long shot. That title likely belongs to Switzerland."

tavis, switzerland has never stood for anything other than themselves. furthermore, switzerland has not single-handedly increased the standard of living of the entire free-world.

enough of the retarded comparisons. my 6 yr old boy knows the difference between slaves/ oppressed and free folk. issues of right/wrong don't become muddled until you get mixed in with the common people.

(Edit: Off topic babble deleted )

Cameron, Capt.E, and other pitchfork-wielders (sorry, couldn't resist):

With all due respect to your strong positions on BD as a sell out, and frustration/anger with capitalism, globalization, human rights/political issues in China, and maybe enviro concerns, do you really think America would be better off if we followed your recommendations?

If I understand, we should have nothing to do with countries and their products if they don't meet our various current standards? And maybe even no interaction whatsoever? So we should get no wood, food, raw materials, OIL (!) from any of these countries either? We should just be completely self-reliant, perhaps only working with "Western Democracies" and other PLUs (people like us). Is that really going to protect US jobs, lower total environmental harm, promote social change in China, etc etc.? That kind of closed border approach sounds more like the countries in the world I'd least like to live in economically or socially (North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, Russia, ...)

I don't really see how BD is hurting America. Assuming that the BD post is truthful, they are highly focused on maintaining quality (so climbers are OK on safety). The environmental impact is about the same -- all the aluminum sounds like its still US made, and that's got to be the biggest factor. So, yes, somewhere in America there are fewer jobs where you can insert triggers/springs into cam lobes all day. (And maybe you can get promoted to sewing the slings on.) But US engineers, accountants, logistics experts, quality control experts, designers, etc. are making a good living in a growing industry.

I'm not saying everything is just fine with laissez-faire capitalism. We should ask the hard questions on BD's quality, enviro, factory conditions, etc. But for me a fortress america approach is a prescription for long term decline.

I just think the world is more complicated than your position allows, and I'm much more sympathetic to the impressively frank discussion of tradeoffs offered here by BD and CiloGear.