Light climber, heavier partner

Lena chita wrote:

Left Flank, Mercy the Huff.  You have a good memory for the rest of the details!

Super easy guess, nose hooked??

Thanks for the above! Pedulums I educated myself on within the first half year.

I've not tried sliding slack out with the ATC, but I prepared to go!! now!! any direction. That is partly why I really prefer not being anchored.

And. Bought the Alpine Up, but I've not got the practice in yet for a crag belay.

Best, OLH

Any of you on here so far get by Boise, I'd be honored to climb with you!

climbing friend,

if your partner climbing rocks is more than 40-50 lbs more than you and they make bold flash the 5.8 or 5.10 and rarely or never fall, I predict some very hard catches, ouch ouch, and spiking in your future. For usual it would not be too bad except a sprained ankle or bottom of your footsie hurting for multiple weeks passing, it would all be depending on the circumstances, for obvious, for real.

never trust anyone who thinks a soft catch is given by any method other than moving in / slight hopping at time of rope coming taught. yes, you may want to add a little more slack in certain situations for person to clear roof or tiny dancer climber to not swing in quite as hard, but really it is the clever frog hopping at time most appropriate and the extra slack it is for the lazy man. If someone beleives they are sliding rope through your hands or device during a fall to give a soft catch, they for probable have eaten several buttons of mescaline.

all your flash are belong to me.

Jake Jones wrote:

If a route is overhanging most or all of the way, I'll leave out slightly more slack as the lighter climber gets higher off the ground.  This means a longer fall, yes, but the longer fall isn't the reason precisely.  The reason is that if my lighter climber comes off not far above their last bolt or piece of pro, it happens very quickly and there's very little time to react and get my timing right to execute a soft catch.  By leaving an extra little "dip" of slack out when they're up high, yes, they'll fall further but the vast majority of the time, it's mitigated by allowing me slightly more time to execute properly.

The key to good belaying, and not just giving a soft catch is being super attentive, and asking yourself in a continuous dialogue in your head "what is the appropriate reaction if my climber falls RIGHT NOW".  Sometimes having the correct answer for that coupled with the correct action comes from lots of mileage- which it sounds like you're acquiring.

I fully realize many on here think a noob is incapable, and just refuse to believe this, but truly, with my son on the sharp end? You bet I'm not just thinking consequences for each bit coming up, but I'm also prepared to take a hit myself, if desperately needed. Can I mess up? You bet! But anyone on the other end will be getting that belay as my long set default.

Actually, this is a bit like flying with my husband, VFR, in his little Cessna, especially back country. "What if?" wasn't every second, but always there, in the back of his mind.

Besides, it's more fun when you are an active partner in "the bold flash". :-)

Best, OLH

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

if your partner climbing rocks is more than 40-50 lbs more than you and they make bold flash the 5.8 or 5.10 and rarely or never fall, I predict some very hard catches, ouch ouch, and spiking in your future. For usual it would not be too bad except a sprained ankle or bottom of your footsie hurting for multiple weeks passing, it would all be depending on the circumstances, for obvious, for real.

never trust anyone who thinks a soft catch is given by any method other than moving in / slight hopping at time of rope coming taught. yes, you may want to add a little more slack in certain situations for person to clear roof or tiny dancer climber to not swing in quite as hard, but really it is the clever frog hopping at time most appropriate and the extra slack it is for the lazy man. If someone beleives they are sliding rope through your hands or device during a fall to give a soft catch, they for probable have eaten several buttons of mescaline.

all your flash are belong to me.

Thank you sir, for your excellent advice and concern for my squishage.

However, my bold flash belong to me.

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

Super easy guess, nose hooked??

Thanks for the above! Pedulums I educated myself on within the first half year.

I've not tried sliding slack out with the ATC, but I prepared to go!! now!! any direction. That is partly why I really prefer not being anchored.

And. Bought the Alpine Up, but I've not got the practice in yet for a crag belay.

Best, OLH

Any of you on here so far get by Boise, I'd be honored to climb with you!

Not nose hooked per se, Spirit quick draws have a keylock on the bolt-side, they don't usually get nose-hooked.  But the biner rotated out/up and got stuck between the bolt hanger and a little rock nubbin, so the end result was the same as nose hooked. 

And I wouldn't advice trying the rope sliding through the ATC with a climber on the other end for your first time, or your belayers first time. If you have an option, try it in the gym with a haul bag, or one of those anchoring sand bags, instead of a person. But really, hop and slack are good, and that's what most everyone does

Feeding slack thru the ATC to soften a catch does work - but damn, it's not nearly as easy as a well timed hop. It's also a great way to increase your chances of getting "bitten" by the device - seen quite a few ground falls and serious belayer hand injuries as a result. 

BrianWS wrote:

Feeding slack thru the ATC to soften a catch does work - but damn, it's not nearly as easy as a well timed hop. It's also a great way to increase your chances of getting "bitten" by the device - seen quite a few ground falls and serious belayer hand injuries as a result. 

Don't worry, I'm not real excited about trying this one. My understanding is that lessening the load on the belayers end is the point, hence the jump. The only way slack would work, is to let it run right when it came taut. I just don't see that being a great idea if you are just headed for airborne at that point, me being the light belayer! 

A big guy, with lots of practice, maybe, but I'm guessing that isn't in many climbers' skill set and the jump seems a lot more appealing than a rope that's running while I fall.

Best, OLH

Jake Jones wrote:

In my experience, it's usually the old school crowd that decries the notion of the soft catch and refuses to even try.  

How true .... and they are also more likely to short-rope you on just about every clip, esp if the draws are in-situ or pre-hung, indoors and outside.  

I am old (and somewhat old school) but have picked up on some of the newer techniques and common practices, just so that I can make pretense that I am keeping up with the younger and stronger generation :)

Jake Jones wrote:

I don't think that at all.  I teach lead climbing classes to people new to leading all the time.  I average anywhere from 50 to 80 climbers a year- rough estimate.  In my experience, it's usually the old school crowd that decries the notion of the soft catch and refuses to even try.  Noobs are usually open to things new to them, especially if given in a formal instruction environment.  Also, they seem especially receptive to a technique that can help mitigate them and their partners from injury.  

That wasn't directed at you, of course. 

My experience is that the vast majority of climbers have been super supportive in general of an old lady beginner. 

But on MP? Absolutely anything is fair game for an argument, and that is part of the fun of the thing. I nonetheless get tired of the assumption that I am entirely clueless just because...

This thread is quite helpful. I'm actively chasing down partners, to try and get out more. With someone other than my son and a tiny, tiny, few others on the belay end, I do need to vet the process a bit. 

One of these days, I might fire up a "first date thread", as a companion to rgolds "second date" sticky. It's sorely needed.

Best all, you are super! Helen

A few of my climbing friends are significantly lighter than me, we do a lot of sport climbing in the gym and outside. I have found that being extremely vigilant and alert when belaying as well as standing a few steps from the first clip have helped me the most.

With very very light climbers, I've found that walking towards the wall quickly as they fall is easier to time out and seems to provide a softer catch then jumping alone. I think the angle of the rope to the first draw (think of the free-body diagrams) and the friction created on the first clip someone helps with this. I've practiced it on safer routes to get the feel to good results, but I am still always more nervous and attentive with someone really light as I don't want to be partially responsible for their broken ankle.

Also, another great solution is to have someone else close in weight belay the climber, which I try to do when possible.

Daniel Kaye wrote:

A few of my climbing friends are significantly lighter than me, we do a lot of sport climbing in the gym and outside. I have found that being extremely vigilant and alert when belaying as well as standing a few steps from the first clip have helped me the most.

With very very light climbers, I've found that walking towards the wall quickly as they fall is easier to time out and seems to provide a softer catch then jumping alone. I think the angle of the rope to the first draw (think of the free-body diagrams) and the friction created on the first clip someone helps with this. I've practiced it on safer routes to get the feel to good results, but I am still always more nervous and attentive with someone really light as I don't want to be partially responsible for their broken ankle.

Also, another great solution is to have someone else close in weight belay the climber, which I try to do when possible.

Daniel's the man, considerate and strong,

knows to plant his feet where they belong

to keep us svelte little badasses from taking a fall

and breaking an ankle slammed into the wall.

Being thoughtful and attentive is all it will take

to be a true badass belayer, not some dumbass shit fake.

Best, sir! Helen

Daniel Kaye wrote:

I have found that being extremely vigilant and alert when belaying as well as standing a few steps from the first clip have helped me the most.

With very very light climbers, I've found that walking towards the wall quickly as they fall is easier to time out and seems to provide a softer catch then jumping alone. 

All true.

As a habit, once the climber is past ground fall territory, I put myself a step or two away from the rock/wall.  From here, I will step forward while feeding rope out as the climber clips the rope thru the protection (no short rope without having too much slack out) and step back once the rope is in to "take up the extra slack".  In a fall, I will move towards the rock/wall for heavier and lighter climbers alike (and yes this creates 'more' slack in the system).  All this stemmed from a learning experience long ago; I was yanked up and slammed into the rock (resulting in a bruised hip) as I belayed and caught a much heavier climber, far away from the wall, as he attempted one of the roof climbs down at Kaymoor, New River.

And, yes, with one exception, I almost always climb with and belay climbers 120# to 145#.  Get physics "as much on your side as possible" whenever viable.  I am very lucky to have this bunch of folks to climb with.

S. Neoh wrote:

And, yes, with one exception, I almost always climb with and belay climbers 120# to 145#.  Get physics "as much on your side as possible" whenever viable.  I am very lucky to have this bunch of folks to climb with.

Well, my range so far goes from under 100 to over 200 pounds for partners, and, some of those were "one night stands", so I guess I might as well confess I am a slut and my discretion for a belayer so far has been the ability to walk more or less upright and hold a rope. Sigh.

Yeah. You're lucky. At least everyone has been quite competant, and good company, so far. Lots of nice folks out there, but it's hard to meet them, get them to commit, and find a good fit. I freely admit I am not that good fit for many, but it seems a long process for lots of people.

Best, OLH

Well, the climbing community in the Northeast is huge and getting bigger.  So, finding likeminded and similar sized partners have not been difficult for the past 12~15 years or so.  Before that, it was much harder for me.  Even now, and just like for everyone, I have "one night stands" once in a while too!  I try to stick to mostly TR when this happens and not to overly trust the 'protection' on lead.  :)  

S. Neoh wrote:

Well, the climbing community in the Northeast is huge and getting bigger.  So, finding likeminded and similar sized partners have not been difficult for the past 12~15 years or so.  Before that, it was much harder for me.  Even now, and just like for everyone, I have "one night stands" once in a while too!  I try to stick to mostly TR when this happens and not to overly trust the 'protection' on lead.  :)  

Just to be clear, I've not had doubts at the time about anyone I've climbed with, it's the longer term that's difficult.

I was the partner deemed the wrong fit most lately, and part of it was the size difference, part my inability to rope gun, part my ornery, uppity personality. I would happily partner with these people, but I respect their hesitations.

I can thank them for indirectly making me think about the weight thing more. Realizing that they might not understand what I brought to the table as a light belayer, made me realize a heavier climber (quite reasonably) might not understand that equation with a light climber either. Yet another "duh" moment! Obvious, once ya think of it.

My sympathies on those "huge and getting bigger" climbers in your area. Sheesh. Maybe it's the long winter's?

Best, OLH

Jake Jones wrote:

In my experience, it's usually the old school crowd that decries the notion of the soft catch and refuses to even try.  Noobs are usually open to things new to them, especially if given in a formal instruction environment.  Also, they seem especially receptive to a technique that can help mitigate them and their partners from injury.  

Funny, I was just thinking that earlier today. Witnessed in the gym today:

A girl, climbing with two guys. It's not my regular gym, so I don't know these people, but I have seen the girl climb/belay before, based on what I've seen, she knows what she is doing. Not sure that I've seen the guys before. Though they definitely weren't new/first time climbers. 

The girl is working on a 12+ish very overhanging route. The route starts out easy and gets progressively harder, so she only falls in the top section. And gets slammed into the wall. Hard and Loud enough that I look up from where I'm standing/belaying one route over, and my climber pauses/looks over mid climb. 

She yells, ow, that was hard!

The guy (heavy, oldish, standing firmly on the ground): what do you want me to do? I jumped! (He didn't, I was right next to him, he didn't budge). She says something about "remember how we practiced?" The guys response? "Well, if you don't like the catch, have someone else belay you"

Ouch! No I'm-sorry. No are-you-ok. No I'll-try-better-next-time. 

Not sure what the relationship is between those two, but if it were me, I would probably say, you know what? I think I will! Bye!

The girl was pretty upset, she lowered and went to sit on the bench, while the guy climbed with the third person. Then the girl came back and on her turn wanted to practice the falls on an easy route, where she could look down, ask for more/less slack, aAND tell the guy before she was falling. She was way nicer about it than I would have been. And the guy had this long suffering look of "I know what I'm doing, yet I need to humor this irrational person" the entire time. 

Lena chita wrote:

Funny, I was just thinking that earlier today. Witnessed in the gym today:

A girl, climbing with two guys. It's not my regular gym, so I don't know these people, but I have seen the girl climb/belay before, based on what I've seen, she knows what she is doing. Not sure that I've seen the guys before. Though they definitely weren't new/first time climbers. 

The girl is working on a 12+ish very overhanging route. The route starts out easy and gets progressively harder, so she only falls in the top section. And gets slammed into the wall. Hard and Loud enough that I look up from where I'm standing/belaying one route over, and my climber pauses/looks over mid climb. 

She yells, ow, that was hard!

The guy (heavy, oldish, standing firmly on the ground): what do you want me to do? I jumped! (He didn't, I was right next to him, he didn't budge). She says something about "remember how we practiced?" The guys response? "Well, if you don't like the catch, have someone else belay you"

Ouch! No I'm-sorry. No are-you-ok. No I'll-try-better-next-time. 

Not sure what the relationship is between those two, but if it were me, I would probably say, you know what? I think I will! Bye!

The girl was pretty upset, she lowered and went to sit on the bench, while the guy climbed with the third person. Then the girl came back and on her turn wanted to practice the falls on an easy route, where she could look down, ask for more/less slack, aAND tell the guy before she was falling. She was way nicer about it than I would have been. And the guy had this long suffering look of "I know what I'm doing, yet I need to humor this irrational person" the entire time. 

I would have been very tempted to tell her to grab me next time, I'd be happy to help her work her project!

Best, OLH

Good story, can't say I am surprised since I have seen similar movies before.  

Guy is probably an old traddie thinking I rather be climbing offwidths in nasty conditions on dodgy gear instead of belaying someone on plastic, indoors!  No offense to old traddies (a number of my friends are) or people pulling hard in the gym.  Not to hijack this thread but soft catch is no doubt better than hard when the gear is tiny or dodgy.  Remember screamers with tags that rip to reduce impact force on gear?

climbing friend,

if you are meeting your new partner for first time dating, how may you be telling if they are quite interested in you, and whether you shall ask them to meet again? Sometimes it is quite confusing, yes? Shall there be "signals" you would "read?"

And what may you do at the end of this time together? shall you say you had a good time? Or simply you are running off into the forest as quickly as possible?

There are SIGNALS that I'm supposed to READ? When dating? Shit, I'm completely illiterate in Signalian. I thought it was the stars, and destiny, and stuff... Not signals!