Head and neck injuries with Asana gym mats?

Hank Caylor wrote:I owned a 10,000sq ft. gym down n Austin, TX for a few years. Maybe not super glamorous, but 18" of pea gravel baby! You could go 20 feet right onto your head, never had a single injury of any kind. I know, gross and dusty. The boogers were incredible but it certainly did the trick.

ha ha, pea gravel. those were the days! dust everywhere - people dying of black lung left and right.

T Roper wrote: I've climbed on Asana mats when they were new and agree they are stiff as hell but so were all of my boulder pads when they were new. Quality foam is stiff when new.

This was the original information we are trying to find out here. How do you know Asana is good quality? (I looked before posting this thread and couldn't find anything). How do you know quality foam is really, really stiff when it is new? How do you know stiff foam is one size fits all quality-wise? (i.e. it will work for the little kids on the climbing team, the adults, tall people, short people, fat people etc)? Do you know it's good from your experience falling on stiff foam? If so, what if someone physiologically different from you falls on the same foam, given the same conditions? I am not really interested in the climber's/gym owner's safety responsibility, I am interested in what is a safe material and what is not. Why does the super soft foam work for me and this is horrible, but for you it is great? This would have sufficed as your original answer. lol

slim wrote:a few years ago it seemed like movement boulder replaced their bouldering pads/flooring. it was literally like concrete for a couple weeks. the first time i came off, it was like my ribs almost went through my skull. then it all of a sudden was good. i was always curious if the pads softened up, or if they immediately yanked the hard padding and re-installed different padding. it seemed like it happened overnight. maybe somebody has more info on this?

EXCELLENT Question! Would love to also find out what they were using, and if they changed, what did they change it to?

Tim Lutz wrote: The climber is a consumer and should expect a level of safety equal to the height of the wall.

And as a consumer if they don't like it they can vote with their feet - go somewhere else...No one is forcing anyone to climb at that particular gym. Just like no one is forcing people to highball. You can choose to bail off partway up if it is too sketchy.

BarbJ wrote: Curious- how tall were the walls? I have never bouldered over pea gravel although I have heard of it in gyms before, my guess would have been that it would make a terrible shock absorbing medium but obviously not if you had no injuries. I can see how this might reduce ankle rolls and fall injuries related to hitting the edge of the crash mat for sure. It seems very hard though.

We had thick pea gravel around a large wooden structure in my elementary school, high decks with railings around 12 feet tall, a tire swing held up with chains that pinched your hands, exposed lag bolts below, etc. Basically the type of thing that would never fly in a playground today. We used to jump off those railings all the time, I don't recall anyone actually getting hurt landing in the pea gravel. Then again everyone was landing on their feet, not their back or their sides.

Hank Caylor wrote:I owned a 10,000sq ft. gym down n Austin, TX for a few years. Maybe not super glamorous, but 18" of pea gravel baby! You could go 20 feet right onto your head, never had a single injury of any kind. I know, gross and dusty. The boogers were incredible but it certainly did the trick.

I built a play structure in the 90s that used pea gravel because, based on research at the time, pea gravel was supposed to be the best surfacing material. More recent research shows that sand, wood chips, and shredded rubber nearly double the "critical fall height" from 6 feet to 12 feet. The critical fall height is defined in terms of a force on the head that is not likely to cause serious head injury, but that also translates to less force on other body parts.

There is data on critical height for various types of flooring used in cheerleading. The best performance (critical height greater than 10 feet) is with landing mats (4 inches thick) over a foam (about 1.5 inches thick) or spring floor.

It would be interesting if there is some actual science to back up the claims made for different foams used to protect bouldering gym surfaces, or if it's just a matter of thickness; and, whether there is a thickness beyond which there is no gain in protection.

PRRose wrote: There is data on critical height for various types of flooring used in cheerleading. The best performance (critical height greater than 10 feet) is with landing mats (4 inches thick) over a foam (about 1.5 inches thick) or spring floor.

That's not completely applicable here. Cheerleading floor has to, well, support cheerleading, so it's dual purposes. Gym mats really only has to be walked over. Without that limitation, a deep foam pit is obviously the safest.

climbing friend!

the foam must be stiff at first, for it will soften over life of 100s and thousands of fall and drop offs, including the 10 year old with the broken ankle or the gym noob falling 10 feet onto outstretched arm, and also the white boulderer with dreadlocks who lies on the pad all day sweaty with bare feet.

If you find this gym climbing quite scary, may you go out door for try bold highball flash, with no pad, pretending it is 1950s and you are john gill. Then your heart will warm and you relax at the gym, and you also be more aware and better at falling!

Toughen yourself up! Yes you may still become hurt if unlucky or doing foolish things, but your bouldering gym stiff mats everywhere is most likely more safer than actual bouldering.

Having a thick and meaty neck helps too I hear.

T Roper wrote: Having a thick and meaty neck helps too I hear.

climbing friend,

yes, my thick and meaty meat of neck meat it help me control the landing and align my spine to position most helpful!

Hank Caylor wrote:I owned a 10,000sq ft. gym down n Austin, TX for a few years. Maybe not super glamorous, but 18" of pea gravel baby! You could go 20 feet right onto your head, never had a single injury of any kind. I know, gross and dusty. The boogers were incredible but it certainly did the trick.

The engineer in me says why not put the pea gravel on a slightly sloped floor, add floor drains and rinse that shit every few days with bleach water? I should patent that idea...

I remember a gym in Sandy UT that had foam cutouts from Teva type sandals, it worked pretty well but definitely was a staphylococcus infection waiting to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACimqUHPxoM

There is a proper way to fall in every sport. Therefore, there must be an ideal stiffness for the sport specific landing surface to attenuate the impact force.

Aleks Zebastian wrote:climbing friend! If you find this gym climbing quite scary, may you go out door for try bold highball flash, with no pad, pretending it is 1950s and you are john gill.

Good advice, but just for the record you can pretend it is the 60's, 70, or 80's too, as bouldering pads (as opposed to the occasional mattress) didn't show up until the late 80's or early 90's.

rgold wrote: Good advice, but just for the record you can pretend it is the 60's, 70, or 80's too, as bouldering pads (as opposed to the occasional mattress) didn't show up until the late 80's or early 90's.

Climbing friend,

I block your attempted wang-slap of me, and say that yes you pretend it is 50s, because that's when John Gill began the specializations in short acrobatic routes on bouldering rock and he brings chalk to the sport, according to wikipedia.

reboot wrote: That's not completely applicable here. Cheerleading floor has to, well, support cheerleading, so it's dual purposes. Gym mats really only has to be walked over. Without that limitation, a deep foam pit is obviously the safest.

There are constraints on a cheerleading surface, but the studies were looking at falling safety.

There's an interview on the Chalk Talk podcast with Mark Fraser of Flashed pads/flooring which seems pretty apropos.

http://ctclimbingpodcast.com/flashed-mark-fraser-bouldering-crash-pads-flooring-systems-indoor-climbing-gyms/

Aleks Zebastian wrote: Climbing friend, I block your attempted wang-slap of me, and say that yes you pretend it is 50s, because that's when John Gill began the specializations in short acrobatic routes on bouldering rock and he brings chalk to the sport, according to wikipedia.

Climbing friend, you seem to be in need of the comprehensions of reading for writings as written by actually yourself, then also for respondings of wryness rather then malice, and most finally for the inflatings of sensitivities to non-existent threatenings to the always-precious wang.

However, in case you are liking the slapping of the wang and wish for more such delicious punishments, please to be taking good notes of the fact that the very self-same John of Gill, he who you have made mentionings of as authoritative, has his own self given tracings of the origins of bouldering back to the 1880's, which is distantly and also very much before the 1950's date given by the Wikiweenia wang-hats.

I researched and thought a lot about mats & falls while building a home wall about a year ago. I decided to go with 8" impact mats made for gymnastics training. Gymnasts know about falling, I figured... The mats are made to my space and were decently priced. Very reassuring as a fall zone.

You still gotta control your own fall, though.

T Roper,
Glad to hear that a simple and long available technology has been adapted for plastic hold climbing.
Foam filled pits and pools are used for Bike stunt training.

I personally don't train indoors because I found I was always getting hurt more and more severely when pushing it on - or pulling on Plastic.
Something to do with repetitive motion, or lack of variety of the way one uses plastic holds?

rgold wrote: Climbing friend, you seem to be in need of the comprehensions of reading for writings as written by actually yourself, then also for respondings of wryness rather then malice, and most finally for the inflatings of sensitivities to non-existent threatenings to the always-precious wang.

The kids write it out with lots of letters. That was a very funny retorte , good one sir.

Or for the modernly educated ; BRAgh ha ha he hahha, - go ahead and sound out each syllable .

Aleks? what was that last name you call your self? Where do you say you are from ?
What Nationality ? How long have you been in this Country ?
Some find you entertaining , I'd do not.

There is no accounting for taste, to each his own, are sayings that I apply when

I skip over your posts with regularity. ( more on the reason is included in my comments )

I read every post from The professor twice, as I'm sure many do.

And drop the insulting half wit, speak, it is a narcissistic self inflated weak sauce act.
You are good at it, but it is still insulting.
I find it more offensive than the route names 'Negro Girls' -'Limp Wristed Faggot' . . . .
Why is it that you still can't be bothered to assimilate & learn how to write clearly ?
That you have not, points out your insensitivity to people who struggle to communicate in
proper English.
&
don't believe every thing that you read in that Wiki site, Chalk yes , but bouldering started when our ancestors lived in caves, are you aware of the Cliff dwellings in the American south-west? Or maybe the 1st time humans climbed up on rocks was in France? or on the plains & Savannah's, when hunting & avoiding raging beasts.

Aleks,
please disregard my post. I don't know why I felt the need to comment.
Maybe I had a bad night at work. My apologies.

Edit , some hours later,
(?)hmm, On deeper introspection:)
I think it might be that I am concerned that if your playful ways are not appreciated by others who you address, others who bring their vast knowledge and cogent thought to the forum, and so,
Insulted, leave the forum, we will all be much poorer for it.
I hope that you can understand, I felt that it was important to address, it is an opinion based
on the growing mediocrity I see on the forum. This is what's good, that it is a place is where
Many opinions can be voiced.

Michael Schneider wrote:T Roper, Glad to hear that a simple and long available technology has been adapted for plastic hold climbing. Foam filled pits and pools are used for Bike stunt training. I personally don't train indoors . . . . .I found I was always getting hurt more and more severely when pushing it hard indoors ....... The kids write it out with lots of letters. That was a very funny retorte , good one Sir. .............. Aleks? what was that last name you call your self? Where do you say you are from ? What Nationality ? How long have you been in this Country ? Some find you entertaining , I'd do not. There is no accounting for taste, to each his own, are sayings that I apply when I skip over your posts with regularity. ( more on the reason is included in my comments ) I read every post from The professor twice, as I'm sure many do. And drop the insulting half wit, speak, it is a narcissistic self inflated weak sauce act. You are good at it, but it is still insulting. I find it more offensive than the route names 'Negro Girls' -'Limp Wristed Faggot' . . . . Why is it that you still can't be bothered to assimilate & learn how to write clearly ? That you have not, points out your insensitivity to people who struggle to communicate in proper English. & don't believe every thing that you read in that Wiki site, Chalk yes , but bouldering started when our ancestors lived in caves, are you aware of the Cliff dwellings in the American south-west? Or maybe the 1st time humans climbed up on rocks was in France? or on the plains & Savannah's, when hunting & avoiding raging beasts.