Leaver Biners @ chains

Take this for what its worth, but most the local crags around here have hardware-store 3/8" steel biners on the chains. They seem to take a lot of abuse, they're cheap and generally of the same grade as the chains themselves. I know they're mostly "c-h-i-n-a" rated but for lowering I dont worry too much about it. Best of all NO one booty's them.

Bruce...a note on cost. No Mussy hook is as cheap as someone else's old bottom-of-the-bag biner. They are free. That's the attraction.

The thing I can't understand is why someone would remove an old bottom-of-the-bag biner from an anchor.

Devin, when you say "hardware-store biners" do you mean snap-links or real carabiners ? Snap-link strength ratings are surprisingly low.

I am a bit confused here. You are leaving "bottom of the bag" biners on anchors as a community service? If you are really doing a community service you should be leaving good quality hardware since others will be trusting that the hardware is going to be reliable. If you are leaving "bottom of the bag" hardware then maybe the people taking your old trashy biners are the ones doing the community service.

Bruce

ps - Mussy Hooks cost $8 which is about the same price as a new carabiner.

J,
I'm talking about the snap links, most 3/8" ones I have seen at hardware stores are rated around 2200lbs (at least that's the number I recall could be off) but I recall it being close to or equal to similar sized chain which is usually what the links themselves are attached to, which is then attached to the hanger. If I'm just lowering off I take a look at it make sure its not worn, rusted, or cracked and rarely give it a second thought.

I do occasionally see people top rope through them and I inform them that the links are just for lowering at the end of the day. Top rope through your own gear then last one lowers through the links.

Bruce, I didn't say that I do it personally, just trying to explain the attraction. Putting up new routes is expensive, so another 16 bucks at each anchor is enough to give some people pause.

And I really don't think it's as bad as you make it sound. Even bottom-of-the-bag biners are very strong. Espec for lowering. And there are two of them. And if you don't like them you can leave your own. That's good enough for me.

Devin, the 2200 rating is probably for quick-links not snap-links. Check the labels next time you're in the store, you may be surprised at the difference. I'd still trust them, but it's not a slam-dunk.

jbaker wrote: Check the labels next time you're in the store, you may be surprised at the difference. I'd still trust them, but it's not a slam-dunk.

will do!

In some ways I agree with what Bruce is saying and I am usually more worried about lowering off of someone else's old worn out gear than taking the time to string the chains which I generally perceive as being safer.

It's also very rare for me to booty gear for the sole reason I never feel too comfortable using it without knowing its history. Just a personal policy I guess.

I wouldn't argue with Bruce. He's a very experienced climber, I remember him from the Rec.Climbing days and I think he's climbed with some of my old partners. I'm just trying to clarify WRT the local situation.

To clarify they were not bottom of the bag biners. They were in good shape and ones that I used everytime I climbed. I felt they would be beneficial where I placed them making the transition to the final rappel easier and safer. I knew when I was placing them on the anchors that I was taking a chance but was hoping our community would know better than to take them. I have learned to not place gear like this on well traveled routes since there is a higher risk of them being stolen. Just sucks that people can't respect other people's contributions and leave them alone.

I like the idea of leaving biners... a new climber stimulus package, ala rupley's "pins for the poor". Since it's not a real issue of safety, but a very very slight convenience, I don't really see this sweeping the mountain. It seems kinda funky to leave ugly biners... and I think it would encourage TRing from the "fixed" gear instead of the climber's own gear.

Perhaps there is no consensus as to what "consensus" means. If you mean 100% of people agree that taking fixed biners at anchors is wrong, obviously there is no consensus. I suppose one could say there is no consensus against shoplifting, littering, drinking-and-driving, etc.

Still, I believe that such a high percentage of climbers think that removing useful fixed hardware from anchors is wrong is in fact a consensus, but I can't prove it, that's just my experience. Society punishes shoplifters, litters, etc.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:BTW. If you are leaving carabiners as a community service then I suggest that you do a real community service and install Mussy Hooks. There is very little debate that Mussy Hooks are booty. Bruce

No. Leaver biners disappearing just proves that there exist a lot of noobs and douche bags. Kinda like people toproping off of fixed anchors. I always try and politely mention to folks that those of us who maintain the hardware would greatly appreciate if they used their own gear. Instead of saying stealing is inevitable, how about taking responsibility for trying to educate people on what is proper etiquette.

I put up new routes fairly frequently and I think the use of leaver biners is superior to other fixed hardware on single pitch routes, for a number of reasons. However, my typical setup is a 3/8 quick link followed by chain. I would add a leaver biner to that setup more often if I thought there weren't so many cheap-asses out there excited about scoring some unknown biner to add to their collection. I have had a number of my leaver biners stolen and it's just not sensible to have to keep replacing them. My alternative would be mussy hooks, which are nice but more expensive than biners. How about if the climbing community instead take some responsibility and just leave good harware at an anchor where it is. Stealing the biner isn't stealing it from the person who put it there, it's stealing from every climber after you who now has to untie, thread, and retie. Oh, and don't tell the FA'st to put more expensive hardware on a route when you could do the same thing yourself. I suspect that 99% of the time someone takes a biner from an anchor they know they are doing the wrong thing. Putting a mussy there just compounds the expense of the theft. If I were to going around stealing mussy hooks to sell on ebay there would be a lot of upset climbers, but the theft is the same.
Don't steal hardware on top of anchors, if something needs to be replaced then do it.

pfwein wrote:Perhaps there is no consensus as to what "consensus" means. If you mean 100% of people agree that taking fixed biners at anchors is wrong, obviously there is no consensus. I suppose one could say there is no consensus against shoplifting, littering, drinking-and-driving, etc. Still, I believe that such a high percentage of climbers think that removing useful fixed hardware from anchors is wrong is in fact a consensus, but I can't prove it, that's just my experience. Society punishes shoplifters, litters, etc.

I don't think there is anything done with malice, I think there are just a lot of newer climbers (most of us on here have more knowledge (or desire to learn) than many of the people that climb once a month. I think the consensus on MP is to leave them, I think if you include everybody that climbs it may be "huh, somebody forgot biners up here, score".

I use two locking biners up top, end of the day I run up there get them and rap off. It's rare I TR off fixed gear though I'm personally fine with it if there are new climbers trying to learn so they went out in hopes of finding a rope gunner.

Also, from time to time I will do it on a really hard route (I know I'm not going to reach the anchors) where I will rap down to set up TR though it's rare I do this.

If there are new climbers out there taking gear, then there is a major problem. Seeing how most new climbers out there do not know how to properly clean a route then: 1. Why are they taking something off a route that they have no clue why it is there. 2. The biners are probably the most useful thing on the route since the wouldn't have to untie, thread and retie. Guess it all falls back onto educating new climbers. Oh well I'm done ranting on. Thanks all for the replies I appreciate everyone for posting and for everyone who puts their time and money into the routes and there maintance.

Bruce,
You got stock in Mossy Hook or what???
Tell you what. Why don't you buy me two mossy hooks for every new route we do and I'll give you two leaver biners. They're the same price, right? Fair trade I should think.
Then we won't have to bother with all that educating the masses hub bub.
Here's another big advantage. With Mossy Hooks on every anchor the masses will never have to think about inspecting the anchor they're about to use. And...and then they'll never need to think about maybe giving something back to the community. That way, they only have to concentrate on sending the route. (That magically appeared on the rock some time in the past.)
Off course they'll still be flustered at how hard the guide book is to figure out, and why couldn't the author have done it better to make it easier for them. But that's another thread entirely.

Does this answer your question EFR??

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:Monomaniac, Besides there being no consensus on left gear at the crags, I don't believe there is a consensus on "climbers who know what's up". It unwise to think that there is some sort of consensus when the facts prove otherwise. As I said before, if the climbers leaving these biners want to end the speculation and perform a real community service, then stop leaving carabiners at anchors and start installing Mussy Hooks. I have yet to see a thread on any climbing forum where people are wondering what the consensus is for taking/leaving Mussy Hooks at anchors. Bruce ps - Mussy Hooks cost the same as carabiners so cost is not an issue.

Around here the consensus is to leave the biners on the anchors. The vast majority of climbs with these anchors have been left intact. This is a matter of education for the few climbers who are not on board yet.

EDUCATIONAL MESSAGE BELOW:

***ATTENTION*** THESE ARE ANCHORS, NOT BOOTY

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For several years now, quite a few of us here in NC have been leaving the same set up as Eric Rhicard mentioned -- bolt/quicklink/biner combo. We generally use them only on the more obscure and harder routes, assuming that the folks climbing these lines will understand that these biners are "fixed". Most of the folks climbing these routes don't need to steal the biners anyway, as they've likely been climbing long enough to have built up their rack by this point. I prefer using old biners because they are a great way of re-cycling (for all of the green people out there), and because it's just simply economical if you're already spending much cash on bolts. Other positives are that they're simple and easy to change, and that they don't corrode nearly as much in this eastern humidity.

For the popular mainstream routes I like to use more typical bolting hardware that cannot easily be removed, because I know someone will eventually take it.

Consult Freedom of the Hills or How to Rock Climb for details of how to set up a safe toprope. This usually entails toproping off two opposite and opposed quickdraws or building an equalized anchor with locking carabiners at the end. The past climber threads the rope and rappels. This relatively simple procedure means that nobody has to leave his or her carabiners behind to be mistakenly stolen.

D. Lucander

The anchor in the photo above costs about between six and 12 dollars depending on if you are using carbon steel or stainless bolts and hangers. Pretty cheap and pretty safe. The fact that we are all responsible for maintaining it is priceless.

Oh, here is an interesting note. After requesting old biners from the Tucson climbers we received almost 100 of them. Interesting part is that my initials were stamped in at least 2 of them. Hmmmmm!

lucander wrote:Consult Freedom of the Hills or How to Rock Climb for details of how to set up a safe toprope. This usually entails toproping off two opposite and opposed quickdraws or building an equalized anchor with locking carabiners at the end. The past climber threads the rope and rappels. This relatively simple procedure means that nobody has to leave his or her carabiners behind to be mistakenly stolen. D. Lucander

hey lucander-

thanks for the tip.

the carabiners aren't being left there for toproping, though, they are being left there to make the transition from climbing to lowering safer & quicker.

i have been using this setup in the area i'm developing for rap anchors - it's really nice when doing multiple raps to get to the ground.