documented info on why gyms require you to back up a figure eight using an overhand

Mariah Rox wrote:

I know someone whose friend accidently clipped the tail. He took a weird fall but was fine. 

Glad to hear he's ok. The weird falls can be the worst.

Pete S wrote:

Prior to a few months ago, I would have agreed with OP but I’ve actually seen loops develop on some friends poorly tied figure 8s. Rather scary.  Granted, it was on 70m dynamic lines that were fixed on a slab route and being jugged up using a figure 8 on a bight, connected to the belay with 2 locking carabiners.  4” - 6” loop developed on two different lines and could have been catastrophic.  No stopper knots were put in.  I was at the belay as they were coming up and watched it develop, I then pulled the tails tight!! getting the open loops out.   So yeah, I would say it is best practice for the masses to back up! 

I can’t imagine a scenario where a weighted figure 8 could start untying itself. I don’t know what you think you saw but I don’t think you saw what you think you saw.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

I can’t imagine a scenario where a weighted figure 8 could start untying itself. I don’t know what you think you saw but I don’t think you saw what you think you saw.

took some photos to help make it clear, we were developing a new alpine route and safe rap route.  Team of 4, 2 guys lead 2 pitches then attach 2 ropes for the other two guys with ascenders to jug up with heavy packs. we did 5 pitches this way, imagine 180lb guy with big pack jugging up full length of a 70M dynamic 9.5 line with fig 8 attached to quad anchor with lockers on slab rock, not overhanging.
initially knots looked like this: 

By the time my friends were 2/3 way up, the ropes looked like this: yes, both ropes had same issue, one had bigger loop and could have worked all the way out.

 The tail continued to work up slowly. I was at the anchor and tightened down the tail.  The route, jugged first 5 pitches to a ledge, look at pine

So yeah. Stopper knots are would have made it much safer.  

Mariah Rox wrote:

I know someone whose friend accidently clipped the tail. He took a weird fall but was fine. 

Rare weird things do occasionally happen.

I stopped tying a backup knot on figure 8 after a really bizarre event:

I was right at the bolt, and asked for a take. I didn’t want to sag down any, so I pulled myself in as my belayer took hard, and somehow the double-fisherman’s knot went through the biner (a combination of skinny rope and larger biner, plus a hard tug, I guess). I had very little room between the figure 8 and the backup knot, and the draw was in that spot.

So I was stuck very close to the wall on a short draw, and in order to untie the backup knot and free myself I needed to unweigh the rope, but I had no good holds to pull myself on (which is why I asked for a hard take in the first place). It took some effort, and gave me a strong dislike of the “backup knot” on figure 8

sDawg wrote:

My gym started requiring it after 3 people fell from the anchors in a month because they didn't finish their Figure 8. The logic is that now the Figure 8 doesn't look finished until it actually is finished because the finishing knot is visually so different. If someone gets distracted in the middle of following through, safety patrol can catch a lack of a finishing knot from across the gym, but only if they can reasonably expect the finishing knot on every tie in.

That's terrible. Were there multiple deaths? I would see this as an event similar to a mass shooting. To get this many such incidents in a single month, every one of them fatal or potentially fatal, I would think there would have to be something more systematically wrong with the gym's training, culture, supervision, or environment. What gym is this? I don't know what the frequency of such accidents is at a normal climbing gym, but I would hope it would be so low that most gyms would have never had one.

soft crux wrote:

- mistaking the tail on your knot as the climbing rope

- losing an eye because you get hit with the tail of your tie-in knot

- being confused by the extra knot on the tail

That is how you take YGD to the next level

I dont really see the benefit of having an extra knot, that does nothing, to just tying a propper figure-8. Clipping a long tail or jamming the mess of redudant knots into QDs and gear actually happens.

Lena chita wrote:

Rare weird things do occasionally happen.

I stopped tying a backup knot on figure 8 after a really bizarre event:

I was right at the bolt, and asked for a take. I didn’t want to sag down any, so I pulled myself in as my belayer took hard, and somehow the double-fisherman’s knot went through the biner (a combination of skinny rope and larger biner, plus a hard tug, I guess). I had very little room between the figure 8 and the backup knot, and the draw was in that spot.

So I was stuck very close to the wall on a short draw, and in order to untie the backup knot and free myself I needed to unweigh the rope, but I had no good holds to pull myself on (which is why I asked for a hard take in the first place). It took some effort, and gave me a strong dislike of the “backup knot” on figure 8

That happened because you asked for a take while your knot was above, at least at the same level as, the quickdraw. Calling take when you are above the bolt is not a good idea. Climb down until your knot is below the draw, or just fall.

And if the double fisherman could have passed through, the figure eight could have also. Don't blame the stopper knot for a climber mistake.