Why all the hate on using two ropes?

Bill Schick wrote:

...when they very quickly realize how much the additional mass and friction in the system sux. 

It’s pretty simple - more rope weight - more surface area - a bunch of heady rocket science to somehow turn that into less overall drag on the leader - lol.

Runners - learn to use.

Straighter rope paths totally cancel any tiny additional friction from increased surface area,  It is certainly true that there is more rope weight, and I've very occasionally felt I noticed it at the end of 60m rope-stretcher leads, although I'd have to go back and repeat the experiment with a single rope to validate that impression,  However, since one is only clipping one rope at a time, pulling up and clipping is easier because of the lower rope weight of a single strand.

But rope weight might be the wrong quantity to focus on. One of the things the rocket scientists and SAR practitioners know is that rope friction through carabiners is exponential in the bending angle (Google the Capstan Equation), so that even relatively small improvements in the rope path can have substantial friction-reducing effects.  Since the effective rope weight felt by the leader is the weight of the rope magnified by the friction in the system, the rope weight advantage of a single rope totally disappears in many cases.

On the other hand, it is true that mismanaging a pair of half ropes can create more drag than a single rope. Perhaps the "heady rocket science" comment has some validity---some folks should definitely stick with a single rope! On the other hand, one has to wonder why the UK doesn't lead the world in rocket science, considering how many of them are able to manage the daunting mental challenges of alternate clipping.

All that said, reducing rope drag for the leader is just one of a slew of half-rope advantages, so criticisms based on rope drag alone are not well-informed.

rgold wrote:

Straighter rope paths totally cancel any tiny additional friction from increased surface area,  It is certainly true that there is more rope weight, and I've very occasionally felt I noticed it at the end of 60m rope-stretcher leads, although I'd have to go back and repeat the experiment with a single rope to validate that impression,  However, since one is only clipping one rope at a time, pulling up and clipping is easier because of the lower rope weight of a single strand.

But rope weight might be the wrong quantity to focus on. One of the things the rocket scientists and SAR practitioners know is that rope friction through carabiners is exponential in the bending angle (Google the Capstan Equation), so that even relatively small improvements in the rope path can have substantial friction-reducing effects.  Since the effective rope weight felt by the leader is the weight of the rope magnified by the friction in the system, the rope weight advantage of a single rope totally disappears in many cases.

On the other hand, it is true that mismanaging a pair of half ropes can create more drag than a single rope. Perhaps the "heady rocket science" comment has some validity---some folks should definitely stick with a single rope! On the other hand, one has to wonder why the UK doesn't lead the world in rocket science, considering how many of them are able to manage the daunting mental challenges of alternate clipping.

All that said, reducing rope drag for the leader is just one of a slew of half-rope advantages, so criticisms based on rope drag alone are not well-informed.

Half ropes, if the British can manage so can you!

I see lots of alluding to the benefits of half ropes but other than longer rappels and purportedly less rope drag, there just doesn't seem to be a real rationale beyond "Once you are good at them, you'll know they're good...."  I rarely have issues with rope drag in the gunks.  I haven't worked on most of the 11's, but from 5.6-5.10, I really haven't had rope drag issues to any real extent.  A couple times here and there, but that was all user-error (and so infrequent that I hesitate to bring it up).  I'm fine at half ropes, no expert, but I can manage the rope and am not shorting.  My partner and I became competent at it because I had the intention of using them on some longer climbs.  Got good, felt comfortable, and just stopped using them.  If you're climbing in the 5.6's and below I'm sure there are plenty of times when having two ropes will be beneficial, but I think the real benefit for most climbers in those grades would come from learning how to avoid drag on wandering pitches using just a single rope. 

It isn't just rope drag on wandering pitches, it's also increased safety. Think about following a traverse, getting around roofs, anything other than a straightforward line. I've never climbed with someone who uses two ropes, but I'd sure be willing to learn, if I was younger and more able to go places more adventurous than single pitch cragging.

H.

Rob D wrote:

I see lots of alluding to the benefits of half ropes but other than longer rappels and purportedly less rope drag, there just doesn't seem to be a real rationale beyond "Once you are good at them, you'll know they're good...." 

Childless Trad Dad posted a bunch of references where this claim is contested---and I would say debunked.  But I wrote them so I guess I would think that.

The main reason I prefer half ropes is not primarily because of rope drag management or longer rappels, but rather better protection for the leader and the second.  This means that the majority of the criticism above has missed the mark.

I think the initial premise of the OP - that there is "hate" on using two ropes, is incorrect and unnecessarily provocative. It's necessary when you need the longer rappels (unless you carry a second rope/tagline), but in other cases, it's personal preference.  Neither is right or wrong.

rgold wrote:

Childless Trad Dad posted a bunch of references where this claim is contested---and I would say debunked.  But I wrote them so I guess I would think that.

The main reason I prefer half ropes is not primarily because of rope drag management or longer rappels, but rather better protection for the leader and the second.  This means that the majority of the criticism above has missed the mark.

Yeah no doubt.  I haven't felt in danger because of climbing on a single line and have taken plenty of big gunks falls on one rope.  If it makes you feel safer then that's awesome.  Personally, I feel plenty safe with a single line.  There's no reason to double guess anyone if they're doing something purely because it makes them feel safer.  

Rob D wrote:

There's no reason to double guess anyone if they're doing something purely because it makes them feel safer.  

 "There's no reason to second guess anyone if they're doing something purely because it makes them feel safer. "

Removed "feel"  to eliminate apparently conceding the point while not actually conceding it at all.  

And we're speaking of the safety of the second as well, so it should read "because it makes the party safer."  With those fixes, we would be agreed.

I think we just disagree on it.  I haven't followed and felt unsafe or led and felt unsafe in situations where a second rope would have made a difference.  

Rob D wrote:

I think we just disagree on it.  I haven't followed and felt unsafe or led and felt unsafe in situations where a second rope would have made a difference.  

I have, and as a noob, too. Further? Rgold is one of a tiny handful of people I trust and would follow their instructions if the shit suddenly got serious. Ask questions later (except if something looked very "off"). If you know me at all from the forums, you know that "obedience" is rare! 

Yes, it is personal preference, sure. But those like Rich who know this well? Likely also have other skills that are not so common, too. Most of the time, it wouldn't matter much...except when it really matters.

Thinking about it, of the four or five who are in that absolute trust category? Three are capable with two ropes. 

There's also a subtle judgement of decision making, for backcountry, ice, alpine, "adventure" climbing, etc. That deeper understanding is a plus, even if you choose not to do so, it's a plus if that was a decision weighing various factors.

Best, H.

EDIT to add, a fatal pendulum fall was what brought me to MP in the first place, as a brand new climber. Trying to understand what happened. Yes, it could have been prevented with different choices with a single rope, but two ropes may have prompted different decisions, with a much different outcome.

I use twins/ half ropes all the time;

Almost exclusively for multi pitch wilderness trad requiring 60 meter rappels .

I frigging love the weight savings.

Ain’t  no hate here!

Not to even mention that rgold is the acknowledged “king of MP” per the Tradicast.  
As a mere serf, I support the king in this one. 

Two ropes work really well- not for single pitch or sport climbing. That’s what 90% of climbers do.
Lots of great reasons given by rgold and others up thread. I’d add this. It’s a great way to climb as a party of three- Leader leads, both followers climb at the same time.

Rob D wrote:

I think we just disagree on it.  I haven't followed and felt unsafe or led and felt unsafe in situations where a second rope would have made a difference.  

That could be.  You've never made a difficult overhead clip where blowing it would cause a fall with lots of slack out.  You've never had the opportunity to place somewhat questionable but possibly effective overhead pro, and had to worry about the resulting much bigger fall if it blows. You've never had to decide between good protection for yourself at the end of a traverse or better protection for the second.  You've never had a run-out section to do with the only opportunity to double up on pro two placements at the same level and ten feet apart, and more generally you've never skipped placing a piece because of the drag it would create.  None of these things have ever been issues, nor do you imagine that they might ever be issues in the future.  Or much more likely, you encounter all of these things and accept them as the price of doing business.  I'm saying that isn't a price that has to be paid.  Making this about "feeling" safe or unsafe isn't the best way think about it, since it is possible to be comfortable with risks that can be mitigated.

Those are just some of the safety issues that seem primary to me. But there are also straighter rope paths---which lead to softer catches, full-length rappels, redundancy in case of possible rope cutting, and various advantages in emergencies. Taken all together, it's a pretty substantial list. Arguments like "just learn to use long slings" aren't even in the ball park.

Look, I'm not trying to get anyone to change anything they're already happy with, and most of the world has voted for single ropes (or, in Europe, twin ropes). Half ropes have advantages and disadvantages. My perspective is that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages, and I've done my best over many posts to give the full spectrum of reasons for that perspective. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Rob D wrote:

I think we just disagree on it.  I haven't followed and felt unsafe or led and felt unsafe in situations where a second rope would have made a difference.  

Emphasis mine. 

Not to pile on, but I think this is also a worthwhile opportunity to consider how to evaluate risk more generally. That is, risk assessment and attendant mitigation would best be relegated to things like first principles, logical reasoning, and empirical (or potentially theoretical) evidence. Basing risk management on a feeling of comfort or safety can create serious problems when the perceived risk and actual risk are disparate.

An exception to this might be when something doesn't feel right, which is then used as a reason to bail or otherwise adjust the plan. However, it doesn't seem that's the point being made here. 

I might feel comfortable soloing steep terrain. That doesn't somehow make it objectively safer than using a rope.

This 70m 13d on Fairhead Northern Ireland is a good illustration of where you need double ropes. Great video too. 4:30 onwards if you want to cut to the chase.

  vimeo.com/386792141

And a good introduction to Kazakhstan rap to boot.

There are some limestone multipitch crags in these parts with some sharp edges. Having two ropes, just in case, gives me a little comfort... thinking of the Yellow Spur accident here. I’m surprised only one or two posts above mentioned this advantage. Still, I use both single and doubles depending on circumstances... length of descent raps,  ease of escape on multipitch, number in climbing party, nature of the route (single pitch, multipitch, wandering, straight), etc.