“Guide Mode” usage

Greg R wrote:

I understand the typical ratcheting method. Rgold is describing creating some slack above the brake hand and changing the angle on the device. What I’m not clear about is how to execute the technique he describes as “pump the slack through to the second”.

You pull it through with your free hand. The brake hand (let's say your left) grabs low on the brake strand, then (still holding the brake strand) grabs the device (now with a bight of slack between the left hand and the device) and rotates the device to defeat the braking effect; then, your free (right) hand can pull the slack through the device on the climber's side.

FosterK wrote:

You pull it through with your free hand. The brake hand (let's say your left) grabs low on the brake strand, then (still holding the brake strand) grabs the device (now with a bight of slack between the left hand and the device) and rotates the device to defeat the braking effect; then, your free (right) hand can pull the slack through the device on the climber's side.

I can imagine holding the brake strand with three fingers and trying to defeat the braking effect with thumb and forefinger would be somewhat difficult with 180# hanging on the rope. (but I haven’t tried it). I was hoping there was a “trick” to make pulling the rope through a bit easier if the braking effect wasn’t totally defeated.    Edit: for me I get more leverage having a biner in the small hole and I can easily grab that while still holding the brake strand. 

Greg R wrote:

I can imagine holding the brake strand with three fingers and trying to defeat the braking effect with thumb and forefinger would be somewhat difficult with 180# hanging on the rope. (but I haven’t tried it). I was hoping there was a “trick” to make pulling the rope through a bit easier if the braking effect wasn’t totally defeated.    Edit: for me I get more leverage having a biner in the small hole and I can easily grab that while still holding the brake strand. 

Simpler version: while grabbing the brake strand maybe 3 feet from the device, reach up and thumb hook the blocking biner.  Pull it away from the device. Then yank slack through the device with your free hand.   Easier than the finger thumb pinch while trying to control the brake strand. But, with climber weight hanging on the rope, either technique will be nearly impossible. These techniques are for an unweighted device. 

Greg R wrote:

Negativek implied this could only be done if the rope was unweighted. Rgold, it sounds like you are saying that is not necessary. By pumping the slack thru, I assume you mean levering the biner back and forth, is that right?

No, I was talking about giving the second slack when the rope is unweighted, not lowering a hanging second, as in the “I can’t give you slack in this configuration” example given by the OP.  

The discussion went off the rails to lowering and the DMM Pivot, etc, etc, but that wasn't the original usage question, at least not as I understood it.

In my experience, many plaquette users either don't know how to give slack to the second when needed, or they have set up a stance with the plaquette out of reach so that slack can't be managed,  or the're too busy multitasking to concern themselves with the amount of rope available to the second.  Instead, they just yard on the rope until it comes tight and leave things there.  I've had a "very experienced" climber crank so hard I couldn't get the rope unclipped from the pro.  The second is continually pulled, can't step down, and can be pulled off if the rope runs sideways or over an overhang just above.  When the belayer is enjoying the benefits of multitasking, periods of being continually ratcheted alternate with substantial loops of slack as the belayer attends to tasks unrelated to belaying.

A funny thing is that, when mentioned, no one ever admits to belaying this way, but my observations and personal experience suggest it may well be the norm.

Brian Sundermann wrote:

Option 3: use a Grigri.  Unless you're needing to save weight there's never a reason not to do that (and you need one less carabiner anyway, so it's not even a big weight difference).  Belaying from above is faster to set up, easier to manage, lowering requires a simple re-direct through equipment you already have set up, and you can build a 3:1 with only one prussik, one carabiner, and 15 seconds.

Never understood bringing a GriGri on *most* multi-pitch (unless taking big whippers on a proj, lots of simulclimbing, short fixing, or long boring aid belays). People usually bring a tube device along with the GriGri in addition anyway, unless you want to deal with single line rap PITA, either planned raps or emergency/bailing (pain in the a§§ often). So there is  weight penalty more than just an extra biner for guide mode. Just bring a guide moded ATC, Reverso, Pivot whatever and your bases are covered for almost all situations.

If autoblocking, I greatly prefer a kong GiGi.  It's better for 2 followers, but more importantly it takes rope in SO much better with less friction than any of the tube guide styles (reverso, guide, etc).

How are the pivot/new reverso/guide/Mega Jul these days for taking in rope in autoblock?  All of the old ones that I have been able to try required a lot more effort to pull rope.

Hope for Movement wrote:

Never understood bringing a GriGri on *most* multi-pitch (unless taking big whippers on a proj, lots of simulclimbing, short fixing, or long boring aid belays). People usually bring a tube device along with the GriGri in addition anyway, unless you want to deal with single line rap PITA, either planned raps or emergency/bailing (pain in the a§§ often). So there is  weight penalty more than just an extra biner for guide mode. Just bring a guide moded ATC, Reverso, Pivot whatever and your bases are covered for almost all situations.

It's much easier to pull in slack (or pay it out) with a Gri Gri on an anchor compared to a plaquette. If I am climbing as a party of two on a single rope, it's my preferred method. A biner block is pretty simple, and if your partner has a tube (or you bring one between the two of you) then they can pull the blocking biner and rap normally.

@Pete Spri Mega Jul is pain in the arse in terms of pulling ropes thru it in guide mode. GigaJul is way better although not that smooth as e.g. BD ATC Guide.

FosterK wrote:

It's much easier to pull in slack (or pay it out) with a Gri Gri on an anchor compared to a plaquette. If I am climbing as a party of two on a single rope, it's my preferred method. A biner block is pretty simple, and if your partner has a tube (or you bring one between the two of you) then they can pull the blocking biner and rap normally.

I use guide mode sparingly and belay off my harness usually, and don't like to fool with things as the second grabs the gear, hands me the pack, and blasts off. I find guide mode (or grigri) more trouble than worth often. Harder to belay in many cases, slower having to change over to leader belay, and having a tube is much more versatile. Pivot works great for the occasions I guide mode it, and belays leaders well. Many-pitch routes, I use guide mode on some pitches and regular on others, situation dependent. These are just my opinions and a lot of people use grigri like you are saying. I just never found it advantageous and feel naked without a tube device.

Hope for Movement wrote:

...slower having to change over to leader belay, and having a tube is much more versatile.

Changing over is the same as a plaquette: follower cloves in, you can just move the the Gri Gri from the anchor to your harness. How do you do it?

FosterK wrote:

It's much easier to pull in slack (or pay it out) with a Gri Gri on an anchor compared to a plaquette. If I am climbing as a party of two on a single rope, it's my preferred method. A biner block is pretty simple, and if your partner has a tube (or you bring one between the two of you) then they can pull the blocking biner and rap normally.

If your partner has a tube have them pre-rig their rappel. The tube will block the ropes while you descend on one strand.

What do you guys think an atc guide does better than a gri besides belaying multiple followers or a double strand rap? Gri gri seems like a much more useful tool in every other circumstance to me.

C. limbnski wrote:

If your partner has a tube have them pre-rig their rappel. The tube will block the ropes while you descend on one strand.

What do you guys think an atc guide does better than a gri besides belaying multiple followers or a double strand rap? Gri gri seems like a much more useful tool in every other circumstance to me.

My perspective is different. A guide device does everything very well, except assisted braking lead belay (easily) whereas Gri Gri is limited in its ability for double rope rap. I'm not too interested in assisted breaking my leader for multipitch free climbing and like the power of toothed tube devices (Jim Titt testing). There are work-arounds of course for the 2-strand raps, and this debate can (and might) go on forever. Multipitch, there are often a lot of 2-strand raps, unless you are walking around. If I were always using guide mode, I could see a Gri Gri being useful, but then I'd probably carry an old-fashioned ATC for raps. But then I am back to  - if I'm bringing an ATC anyway, might as well bring I guide ATC and leave the big chunk of Gri Gri on the ground...

I have spent a lot of time using a Gri Gri on multipitch aid routes, and there is is great for belaying, where pitches are sometimes measured in hours. I'd be most inclined to use a Gri Gri if I thought I'd want/need it for leader belaying.

My mind is open and I've tried all of these combos, just rarely find the need to lug the Gri Gri (or 2 devices) up multipitch.

FosterK wrote: Changing over is the same as a plaquette: follower cloves in, you can just move the the Gri Gri from the anchor to your harness. How do you do it?

Yes, but I use guide mode only in certain situations and prefer to belay off harness for several reasons. I know switching Gri Gri and guide tube is same. I'll build a slightly different anchor if I plan on belaying directly off of it, vs harness, so it is not just unclip and re-clip to harness. Harder routes I've taken to bloc-lead style, so this all goes out the window, but a completely different can of worms.

FosterK wrote:

It's much easier to pull in slack (or pay it out) with a Gri Gri on an anchor compared to a plaquette. If I am climbing as a party of two on a single rope, it's my preferred method. A biner block is pretty simple, and if your partner has a tube (or you bring one between the two of you) then they can pull the blocking biner and rap normally.

Going to disagree with this since not all "plaquettes" are equal.

Kong gigi is a much easier pull even than a Petzl grigri.  At least, the old models.  I have not tried the new grigris yet.

Pete Spri wrote:

Going to disagree with this since not all "plaquettes" are equal.

Kong gigi is a much easier pull even than a Petzl grigri.  At least, the old models.  I have not tried the new grigris yet.

Fair enough, I know many people have switched to a gigi for that reason - I have been considering it for ice climbing. That said, on a Gri Gri 2, it's hard to imagine pulling rope in being much easier. 

Pete Spri wrote:

Going to disagree with this since not all "plaquettes" are equal.

Kong gigi is a much easier pull even than a Petzl grigri.  At least, the old models.  I have not tried the new grigris yet.

Top belaying with a Grigri2 is easy enough that I don't have a motivation to buy another piece of kit, even though I can definitely have gear slut tendencies.

You all remember this?
From last June.....
“ I saw it happen. the climber was being lowered via an atc in guide mode, when the sling to slowely flip the system and release tension was pulled, the entire device flipped. the climber then fell becasue there were no backups in place such as a munter or prusic “

Because of the ever increasing incidence of “failures” while doing one of the most simple things in all of climbing- lowering someone.

Guy Keesee wrote: You all remember this?
From last June.....
“ I saw it happen. the climber was being lowered via an atc in guide mode, when the sling to slowely flip the system and release tension was pulled, the entire device flipped. the climber then fell becasue there were no backups in place such as a munter or prusic “

Because of the ever increasing incidence of “failures” while doing one of the most simple things in all of climbing- lowering someone.

I think it’s now well past time to institute some common sense measures to help make climbing safer for all climbers. 
#1: Any product manufactured for use by “guides” can not be sold unless a guide certification, current up to date, from one of the authorized organizations is provided. 
#2: For non guides, an authorized license is available from your state. The minimum requirement is 20 hrs classroom instruction and 8 hours field work. This license is good for no longer than 3 years and must be renewed at the end of that time- no exceptions. 
#3: Items identified “Guide” may only be obtained from a qualified “Guide retail outlet”. All sales need to be made on the premises and a 14 day waiting period is enforced. “Guide” items may not be sold over the Internet or transferred from one party to another without the use of a “Guide retail outlet” and the 14 day period is enforced for Guide to Guide transfers. “Guide” to “Non- Guide” transfers must use “Guide retail Outlet” and the 14 day period applies. 
#4: Only one (1) “Guide” item may be purchased during each 30 day period. 
#5: “Guide Items” are only permitted for use by the person registered to that specific item. Registration proof must accompany the Item at all times. Proof must be presented to ASCA, MDCS, USFS, NPS or any other LEO with jurisdiction. Failure to do so shall, at a minimum, require a $5,000 fine and 12 months in jail. 
#6: Registered owner is responsible for the safe keeping of “Guide Item” and will be charged with a felony if it is stolen/lost and is involved in a “bodily injury incident”.

I think this is a good starting point. We, as a community, can no longer tolerate these types of totally preventable incidents. 

Yes, we need more regulations in climbing. Uh-huh. :)

FosterK wrote:

Fair enough, I know many people have switched to a gigi for that reason - I have been considering it for ice climbing. That said, on a Gri Gri 2, it's hard to imagine pulling rope in being much easier. 

Thanks to you (and Negative K).  I havent had a chance to try the Grigri2 from above yet.  Maybe sometime soon!

Guy Keesee wrote: You all remember this?
From last June.....
“ I saw it happen. the climber was being lowered via an atc in guide mode, when the sling to slowely flip the system and release tension was pulled, the entire device flipped. the climber then fell becasue there were no backups in place such as a munter or prusic “

Because of the ever increasing incidence of “failures” while doing one of the most simple things in all of climbing- lowering someone.

I think it’s now well past time to institute some common sense measures to help make climbing safer for all climbers. 
#1: Any product manufactured for use by “guides” can not be sold unless a guide certification, current up to date, from one of the authorized organizations is provided. 
#2: For non guides, an authorized license is available from your state. The minimum requirement is 20 hrs classroom instruction and 8 hours field work. This license is good for no longer than 3 years and must be renewed at the end of that time- no exceptions. 
#3: Items identified “Guide” may only be obtained from a qualified “Guide retail outlet”. All sales need to be made on the premises and a 14 day waiting period is enforced. “Guide” items may not be sold over the Internet or transferred from one party to another without the use of a “Guide retail outlet” and the 14 day period is enforced for Guide to Guide transfers. “Guide” to “Non- Guide” transfers must use “Guide retail Outlet” and the 14 day period applies. 
#4: Only one (1) “Guide” item may be purchased during each 30 day period. 
#5: “Guide Items” are only permitted for use by the person registered to that specific item. Registration proof must accompany the Item at all times. Proof must be presented to ASCA, MDCS, USFS, NPS or any other LEO with jurisdiction. Failure to do so shall, at a minimum, require a $5,000 fine and 12 months in jail. 
#6: Registered owner is responsible for the safe keeping of “Guide Item” and will be charged with a felony if it is stolen/lost and is involved in a “bodily injury incident”.

I think this is a good starting point. We, as a community, can no longer tolerate these types of totally preventable incidents. 

Will never work.  Who decides what is "guide" gear?  As soon as you do that, all of the guides will say that it all is so they can monopolize it.

Then again, I think guiding for climbing is usually misplaced.