"Cross Loading" your belay biner is not a thing

rockklimber wrote:

greater for a gri-gri or similar brake assist device that doesnt slip (which most multipitch climbers dont use).

Might want to add in "which most chuffers don't use". Get off the moderate trade routes and onto something harder and you start seeing grigrigs 50-75% of the time. 

Nick Drake wrote:

Might want to add in "which most chuffers don't use". Get off the moderate trade routes and onto something harder and you start seeing grigrigs 50-75% of the time. 

Only if those chuffers are hangdogging a lot.

Makes me wonder how climbers survived before gri-gris.  Prob couldnt climb anything other than the trade routes until the early 90’s.  And how did those stonemasters climb harder than 5.8 without them?  

rockklimber wrote:

Only if those chuffers are hangdogging a lot.

Makes me wonder how climbers survived before gri-gris.  Prob couldnt climb anything other than the trade routes until the early 90’s.  And how did those stonemasters climb harder than 5.8 without them?  

How did construction works survive before automobiles? Prob couldn't build anything taller than 1,000 feet until the 30s. How did those masons lay more than 8 bricks a day? 

Nick Drake wrote:

How did construction works survive before automobiles? Prob couldn't build anything taller than 1,000 feet until the 30s. How did those masons lay more than 8 bricks a day? 

Thanks for reinforcing my point.  

rockklimber wrote:

Thanks for reinforcing my point.  

Your point being... that you still use hip belay and hemp ropes? And ride a horse carriage to work? 

Drama time. 

Lena chita wrote:

Your point being... that you still use hip belay and hemp ropes? And ride a horse carriage to work? 

Not quite.  I’m not dependent on unnecessary gear. It has its uses, but I’ve never needed it for multipitch and dont need the extra weight.  I’d rather carry a couple nore cams.

I’ve actually seen a “guide” using two gri gris on a 3 pitch climb.  Baffling.  

rockklimber wrote:

Not quite.  I’m not dependent on unnecessary gear. It has its uses, but I’ve never needed it for multipitch and dont need the extra weight.  I’d rather carry a couple nore cams.

I’ve actually seen a “guide” using two gri gris on a 3 pitch climb.  Baffling.  

Using two or carrying two?

m Mobes wrote:

Using two or carrying two?

Using two.  One for belaying each client.  

rockklimber wrote:

Using two.  One for belaying each client.  

I could see doing this with two n00bs, I could also see this as a guide company rule. I could certainly see a guide getting belayed by one and having another one for the top belay.

m Mobes wrote:

I could see doing this with two n00bs, I could also see this as a guide company rule. I could certainly see a guide getting belayed by one and having another one for the top belay.

Why would a guide need to use 2 grigris to top belay a couple of noobs?  An ATC guide is a fraction of the weight, faster to setup and has the same functionality.  

The guide was using both and the same time.  Not the clients.   

m Mobes wrote:

I could see doing this with two n00bs, I could also see this as a guide company rule. I could certainly see a guide getting belayed by one and having another one for the top belay.

Seriously? If you need to belay two seconds, use a Reverso, Pivot or ATC-Guide. 

If you are a guide and you need to belayed with a GrGri... quit being a guide. 

rockklimber wrote:

It’s interesting that we still use the term tri-axial loading when it is actually “ tri-directional” loading in only 2 axes (x and y, not z).

Sure... tri directional, tri axis (from the approx center of the connector) language is important.  However your average user will not notice (what is to them) a pedantic differance. (No offense ment to your valid point.)

I am asserting that this failure method of 3 way offaxis loading of a modified D shape carabiner which increases leverage against the gate was the source of failure. Not off axis bi directional loading as the thread asserts does not exist.

I have never broken a belay carabiner. I do however find it very frustrating when it cross loads and have a small and low profile anti cross loading biner.

I have broken 5-6 wiregates that became nose hooked via a poor design. I have bent but not broken several carabiners in gate open (mostly camps)

But it is pretty frightening how easily you can break a carabiner with the load applied to the nose/gate interface.

When i lead solo i use a twist shackle as my sole attachment for my modded grigri. 

rockklimber wrote:

Why would a guide need to use 2 grigris to top belay a couple of noobs?  An ATC guide is a fraction of the weight, faster to setup and has the same functionality.  

The guide was using both and the same time.  Not the clients.   

My guess is epicondylitis.  A lot of guides get bad elbow injuries from continually hauling ropes through guide plaquettes.  I'd have thought the Gigi plaquette would be a good solution, as it offers less resistance than the ATC's and Reversos, but maybe the double Grigris are even better.

rgold wrote:

My guess is epicondylitis.  A lot of guides get bad elbow injuries from continually hauling ropes through guide plaquettes.  I'd have thought the Gigi plaquette would be a good solution, as it offers less resistance than the ATC's and Reversos, but maybe the double Grigris are even better.

My bet is Petzl is looking at the popular usage of Micro Traxion to belay the seconds and are thinking hard about something like it but less damaging to the rope in a bad fall for the second. Belay fatigue is a thing (and sore elbows).

I am asserting that this failure method of 3 way offaxis loading of a modified D shape carabiner which increases leverage against the gate was the source of failure. Not off axis bi directional loading as the thread asserts does not exist.

Good point, the linked accident was definitely 3 way (triaxial or whatever verbiage you prefer) loading, not off axis bi directional cross loading. 

elbow tendonitis is the reason guides were belaying clients from the top with a grigri. Personally I don't find the weight of the grigri worth it to lead with and use for the follower on most routes, but I have done it when we were working something with a steep roof and can confirm it was far easier to pull in slack than with a kong gigi or atc guide with a round stock biner.

All of the hating on grigri for multipitch comments, you're either stuck on your dogma too much to think critically or aren't actually trying to move fast on grade IV routes. Food for thought: cascadeclimbers.com/alpine-…;

rgold wrote:

My guess is epicondylitis.  A lot of guides get bad elbow injuries from continually hauling ropes through guide plaquettes.  I'd have thought the Gigi plaquette would be a good solution, as it offers less resistance than the ATC's and Reversos, but maybe the double Grigris are even better.

Interesting.  I actually have epicondylitis.  But I seldom use guide mode.  

Rob warden The space lizard wrote:

Sure... tri directional, tri axis (from the approx center of the connector) language is important.  However your average user will not notice (what is to them) a pedantic differance. (No offense ment to your valid point.)

I am asserting that this failure method of 3 way offaxis loading of a modified D shape carabiner which increases leverage against the gate was the source of failure. Not off axis bi directional loading as the thread asserts does not exist.

I have never broken a belay carabiner. I do however find it very frustrating when it cross loads and have a small and low profile anti cross loading biner.

I have broken 5-6 wiregates that became nose hooked via a poor design. I have bent but not broken several carabiners in gate open (mostly camps)

But it is pretty frightening how easily you can break a carabiner with the load applied to the nose/gate interface.

When i lead solo i use a twist shackle as my sole attachment for my modded grigri. 

I wasnt trying to bust your balls over terminology.  Just an observation.  I still use the same terminology and explain it to those who question its use.  

I have not broken a carabiner but I have seen some bent gate wiregates that opened when loaded slightly against other gear while aiding that I dont doubt could have broke if I had fallen.  I dont use them anymore.  They were booty anyway

Nick Drake wrote:

elbow tendonitis is the reason guides were belaying clients from the top with a grigri. Personally I don't find the weight of the grigri worth it to lead with and use for the follower on most routes, but I have done it when we were working something with a steep roof and can confirm it was far easier to pull in slack than with a kong gigi or atc guide with a round stock biner.

All of the hating on grigri for multipitch comments, you're either stuck on your dogma too much to think critically or aren't actually trying to move fast on grade IV routes. Food for thought: cascadeclimbers.com/alpine-…;

Nice chart.  Food for thought.  Tfpu.