More Tensleep Drama

C Hopwood wrote: https://www.accessfund.org/open-gate-blog/what-we-can-learn-from-the-ten-sleep-controversy

From the Access Fund website. Some decent food for thought. 

Its like the author read this thread and summarized it.

The red padlocks were super fucking stupid.

JJK wrote: Thought I should point out that the chopping, filling and installation of padlocks did not contribute to the FS moratorium.  The government moves slow and the timing was unfortunate.  Seems like a great time to finish the job since those routes can’t legally be re-chipped and bolted

Here you are mistaken. Fed agencies can move extremely quickly to shut things down. Not so much to lift closures. The laws allowing closures in cases like this already exist, and so do the rules.  The standard for reversing rule making is “arbitrary and capricious,” so if the agency can make a good faith claim that the decision was not arbitrary or capricious, they are good to go, at least until it gets to court. 

Okay everyone...let’s s get this straight. Access Fund’s role is access advocacy, NOT policing development/ethics/style. Piling on the Access Fund for this shit show is pretty ignorant. 

caughtinside wrote:

Yeah, that makes climbers look good. 

<generalization on> Fact is, thanks to swelling ranks and somewhat uneducated (in the care and feeding of outdoor areas) noobie numb nuts, a lot of climbers (and especially the ones chasing the outdoor gym experience) have devolved into selfish d-bags that the FS has every reason to keep an eye on and regulate. Too many children who's parents didn't teach them to take care of stuff if they want it to stay nice; pack out your cig butts, tape, trash, poo-paper, etc. Personally, if they end up banning climbing at areas, or placing moratoriums, or limiting access, then climbers have nobody else to blame. </generalization off>

And for what it's worth, I'd rather they completely ban climbing, than let someone like Gluey carve and drill the place up, as he apparently felt was his unique right.

Except that mediation between user groups, or as in this case, mediation between factions within a single user group is not what the Access Fund does or even has the means to do. 

grog m wrote:

100% agree. Access Fund is more concerned about the color and gender of people in the climbing community than access to crags. 

???????????? wtf right here.....

lloyd wrote: Which begs the question, what do you do when the only recourse you have left is the nuclear option?
Sounds like they tried to get Gluey to stop, and he basically decided f***-you was his final answer.

Sounds relatively accurate to me,  more and more the last few years.

The solution is obvious, but to me it sounds like the good people of Wyoming didn’t do something in the first place. Namely- at the first instance of Gluey removing stone the locals should have removed pieces of tires from his rig. Getting the law involved was the mistake. That has never worked out anyplace. 

Caught.... talking on the net IS easy. Have you ever wondered why there is not chipped out stuff at Suicide, Taquitz, Holcomb, Josh etc?
Gluey was forced to go find the worst choss, the ugly quarry’s the absolute dog shit places to do his craft. Why do you think he left the good popular spots alone?
Why?
Think on that one.

Except that mediation between user groups, or as in this case, mediation between factions within a single user group is not what the Access Fund does or even has the means to do.

That is an interesting comment. I seem to recall the AF trying to work out deals (i.e. mediate) in Unaweep, Queen Creek, Little Cottonwood, Indian Creek, Castle Rock, Moes, etc when there was a conflict between groups. Of course they worked w the land managers to do it.

But why was the 10z situation any different? My guess is they were so worried about climbers looking bad that they turned a blind eye to Gluey's bullshit. Or maybe Gluey is a big supporter. Either way, if their job is to protect access, they FAILED.

Under normal circumstances I don't want routes chopped, but in this case it was justified because none of the other actors were willing to step up do the right thing.

Gluey has been doing this shit for decades. His shit threatens access. BCC and AF knew what he was doing, if they didn't they are stupid worthless organizations. Therefore, they failed to protect access. Now they want to blame others. LAME.

Guy, mostly right, but not entirely. Some damage was done, but it was stopped right quick and Gluey moved into his quarry.

caughtinside wrote:

Most of those areas don't lend themselves to good sport climbing.  Louie has done some routes out at Josh, and I think some have been somewhat "enhanced," although that is all old news.  Holcomb is ok. Who's to say? There are local areas where I live that I don't climb at because I don't like them as much as other spots. 

I think Gluey worked on the quarry because no one else was willing to do the insane amount of work required to make fun routes.  No one forced him out of Echo or a number of other crags.  

The point is... he couldn’t make those places “good sport spots” because well- the locals would not allow his BS to start in the first place. 

Seems to me that he was able to find some fabulous spot- with little/ few locals and he went to town. It took a long time for them to catch on but by then it was too late. 
The gang of 18 should have been the gang of 1 or 2 way back and this whole mess would have been avoided. 

I'll dance with the Lizard. C'mon, let's tango.

Deez Nuts wrote:
That is an interesting comment. I seem to recall the AF trying to work out deals (i.e. mediate) in Unaweep, Queen Creek, Little Cottonwood, Indian Creek, Castle Rock, Moes, etc when there was a conflict between groups. Of course they worked w the land managers to do it.

But why was the 10z situation any different? My guess is they were so worried about climbers looking bad that they turned a blind eye to Gluey's bullshit. Or maybe Gluey is a big supporter. Either way, if their job is to protect access, they FAILED.

Under normal circumstances I don't want routes chopped, but in this case it was justified because none of the other actors were willing to step up do the right thing.

Gluey has been doing this shit for decades. His shit threatens access. BCC and AF knew what he was doing, if they didn't they are stupid worthless organizations. Therefore, they failed to protect access. Now they want to blame others. LAME.

Guy, mostly right, but not entirely. Some damage was done, but it was stopped right quick and Gluey moved into his quarry.

Seriously! There were meditations in place between the BHCC and developers and this BS still occurred...action was needed and those who did the chopping certainly could have foreseen this coming. Honestly, the majority of climbers I have met and known from climbing there for the past 9+ years are pretty happy with the moratorium as this will certainly slow down manufacturing faster than having "meetings" where one party sweet talks those who had any real control over the land. 

Julian H wrote:

They they knew about this thread and I’m pretty sure they have subscriptions to climbing magazines.  They should have gotten involved when then the published the articles were published. That way they could’ve say something like “Look how great we are” 

What did you expect Access Fund to do? Send out the Access Fund Police to arrest Louie and erase the offending routes?

I would expect the BCC and/or AF to do SOMETHING. Instead they just let Gluey keep at it and now blame the folks who DID take action.

When it became clear Gluey wasn't going to stop (decades ago) they should have informed the FS "there's this guy, he's not one of us, he needs to be stopped"... but only because it would be bad PR for the AF to punch his lights out.

Wasn't there some young punk who cut down a tree for a photo op in CA? A local exposed him publically, the FS investigated, he admitted he fucked up, he agreed to do some community service, nobody ever heard about him again, and the crag stayed open.

Surely the AF or BCC could have pulled something similar off years ago if they were worth their donations. But alas, they did nothing and now they'd rather blame the ones who actually did something to protect the resource than admit their sackless complacency.

Deez Nuts wrote: 
Wasn't there some young punk who cut down a tree for a photo op in CA? A local exposed him publically, the FS investigated, he admitted he fucked up, he agreed to do some community service, nobody ever heard about him again, and the crag stayed open.

Joe Kinder, a well established pro climber at the time, put up a new route in Tahoe. He says he cut down a tree to make the route safer, as a falling climber might hit the tree and be injured.

A local photographer (climber?) started a social media campaign against Kinder and iirc, the FS did get involved.
Kinder apologized, did some public service (again, iirc) and put it behind him.
He stayed a sponsored climber until he got social media shamed by Sasha DiGiulian for 'bullying' her and his sponsors ran for cover.

Always thought Joe got a raw deal in both of these episodes, but I don't know him personally, and maybe he did deserve it.
Isn't he from Jersey or NYC or something? Could be some of that back east attitude doesn't play well everywhere.

A closer parallel to 10s would be the story of Ivan Greene, another pro climber.
He got caught chipping bouldering routes at the Gunks and did kind of disappear afterwards.

I think if Louie lost his business, via boycotts of his hold company, guidebooks, campground, etc, he might change his mind.
That would take principled behavior on the part of climbers throughout the US.
Which seems unimaginable.

I don't see what the Access Fund could have done.
Let's say the AF notified the FS about Louie's behavior.
Before all the other shenanigans.
Maybe the FS would have stopped Louie.
But what if they just went with a full closure then?
Kind of a risky move...

The moral- bolt and chipping wars almost never end well.

Riskier than letting Gluey drill yet another crag into submission? Hardly.

If the FS went with full closer back then there would be a lot less damage to the rock and the AF and BCC would likely have more cred with both climbers and land managers. Right now it looks like they don't give a shit about preserving the resource, so why would the FS even consider letting more routes get developed?

Based on experience w mountain biking, you work WITH land managers to develop killer trails that meet their requirements. No matter how fun it is, you don't make 1000' bombs straight down an eroding hillslope that will be a gully in 5 years, and if you see some idiots damaging the area by doing that (or cutting switchbacks) you tell your access group (BCC and AF equivalents) and they inform their FS contacts so they can mitigate. You don't turn a blind eye because the offenders are "friends/spouses/donors" and wait for shit to get shutdown.

The dude should have gone to Maple or some conglomerate canyon where pretty much anything goes. Too bad.

Guy is 100% right, should have been stomped out long ago by locals (if there are any besides the subject here). I guess the empty internet threats were just not good enough and stupid shit was destined to happen?

Plenty of bad examples in Maple. But still, most of what has been done is quite different than drilling pockets in blank stone, which's just plain stupid. Besides, I heard Gluey tried his hand at Maple and couldn't make 5 star 5.10s so he left.

Hubbard wrote: Louie, you did something great at the Riverside Quarry. Nobody complained because it was a quarry. Natural rocks are something different. It is obvious that the community at Ten Sleep are not stoked on what you are doing, and have been clear about it. Bolting itself is controversy enough but is generally accepted because most people don't want to die young. You are a creative guy and there is a perfect medium for your efforts. Indoor gyms are in their infancy as to what they could be. You have the skill and energy to build your own and make it the best one ever. Tearing up the outdoor areas with the drill is below the true artist. It is a fine line and you are crossing it. People are shitting on you. Think it over man. You can do better.

He has, and it is a freaking amazing gym, with inspired setters, and a truly special community. Was a proud member for years before moving out of the area, but I will forever be a part of the #FactoryFam. He should have one in every major city lol

Sounds like he should stick to indoor gyms. Nothing wrong with that. But stop fucking drilling and chipping real rock... WTF!