Using a backup when lowering?

When lowering or rappelling, there are a bunch of circumstances that can distract or detract from maintaining control.  From the perspective of the person controlling, listing those circumstances would include:

1. maneuvering yourself down difficult terrain
2. taking care with controlling the maneuver of someone else who is injured
3. seeking for the next unknown rap anchor
4. darkness or foul weather
5. unexpectedly inadequate friction for the load
6. significant emotional events
7. trying to avoid or being hit by rock fall, or any pain
8. medical event (e.g., heart attack, seizure)
9. tangled or snagged rope
10. loss of balance at a stance
11. poor skill at controlled rap or lower with the device

Everyday lowering from below of someone off a single pitch climb - each of the above either does not apply or is usually extremely unlikely = negligible probability. So for me the complication of adding a backup is not warranted ... despite that the list is not complete.

But if I routinely felt otherwise, best seems to be to just use a brake assisting device for the belay in the first place as James P mentions in the first response to the question. ... much as I believe routine use of a BA device ingrains poor brake hand habits.

Lowering someone from above without a redirect - significant friction at a top biner is lost (credit to FrankPS).  Stance may be inadequate.  Position relative to anchor versus load may be inadequate.  It seems to beg for a backup for someone who is inexperienced.  But other than a brake assisting device that is easy to release? Rigging of the backup may not be possible or necessitates greater rigging skill should the backup get loaded and not be easily releasable.

So, I feel a novice should not lower someone from above without close supervision / setup by someone experienced and knowledgeable of the novice.  But good judgment about these things in someone experienced? ... a back up is not warranted in my opinion.

like most things in climbing, it depends. did i back up my gri gri when i lowered my buddy from below off a single pitch route last night? no...  however, if i'm lowering from the top off a munter, you better believe it's backed up...

Optimistic wrote:

When you were dropped, were you being lowered by someone on the ground? 

Yes - miscommunication and actually only alive because of the device they were using but let's not go down that road. 

The point is you should use one when you feel it would make things safer.

Blakevan wrote:

Yes - miscommunication and actually only alive because of the device they were using but let's not go down that road. 

The point is you should use one when you feel it would make things safer.

Wait, I would like to go down that road. Care to share what happened beyond the miscommunication such as device and other details?

Blakevan wrote:
The point is you should use one when you feel it would make things safer.

Well...I think it would pretty much always make things safer. I guess part of my thought process here is that when I started climbing(1980), it wouldn't even cross the mind of any climber (except maybe SAR?) to think of a backup in any of these situations, and now it's standard operating procedure for most of them for most climbers. Bottom line is that in all cases the penalty for losing control of the rope is pretty severe, and can occur (as noted above) even in the absence of belayer incompetence. 

Anyway, I think I'll give it a try and see how annoying it is. :) 

Greg R wrote:

Yes, if someone can’t make a move or falls on an overhang, they may have to be lowered. Releasing the locked device can result in loss of braking control and its recommended to have a backup. 

Oh I understand why someone might need lowered, but I don't know how you could keep a device in guide mode and still lower someone. Other than ratcheting but that's SUPER slow or by escaping guide mode and setting it up for a lower which isn't really in guide mode anymore. Like, if I'm belaying someone in guide mode and decide I need to lower them to the ground, I can't think of a way that I could do it in guide mode. I'd have to get out of guide mode and either set up the belay device in non-guide-mode mode or throw on another device or hitch.

Lowering from above though, I know it's recommended that a backup is used. No question there, just curious how you'd do it in guide mode.

I guess there is that neato trick if you only have one follower where you jam your nut tool in the other side of the tube and use it as a lever to defeat the device, but I'm not sure if that's recommended. OR I guess some people put a little piece of cord in that loop on the front of an ATC and then clip that with some cord to pull down on and defeat the assisted braking feature. I kinda forgot about that until just now as I'm typing it. I don't have anything in that little loop so I never do that and from what I understand it's pretty difficult to control the descent with that technique. 

Dillon Schwertz wrote:

Oh I understand why someone might need lowered, but I don't know how you could keep a device in guide mode and still lower someone. Other than ratcheting but that's SUPER slow or by escaping guide mode and setting it up for a lower which isn't really in guide mode anymore. Like, if I'm belaying someone in guide mode and decide I need to lower them to the ground, I can't think of a way that I could do it in guide mode. I'd have to get out of guide mode and either set up the belay device in non-guide-mode mode or throw on another device or hitch.. 

all manufacturers who makes devices with guide modes describe how to safely lower in guide mode. here is BD's instructions...

edit: this is just one example recommended by a single manufacturer. there are other ways to accomplish this safety, but please try it before you need to do it in a real situation.  

Didn't read page 2 but if you are not cleaning you would have to go direct so the belayer could have both hands to install an autoblock.
Seems silly.  And what if the climber is TRing and doesn't make it before wanting to lower.  Do they go direct to one bolt or piece?

Also grigri

Don't reinvent the wheel.

curt86iroc wrote:

all manufacturers who makes devices with guide modes describe how to safely lower in guide mode. here is BD's instructions...

edit: this is just one example recommended by a single manufacturer. there are other ways to accomplish this safety, but please try it before you need to do it in a real situation.  

yeahhhh this is that little hole in the front i was talking about. I don't actually know anyone that's done that in real life although I've seen it demonstrated. I know it's pretty darn difficult to get going but when you do it really lets loose (which is why the back up isnt just an autoblock but a munter). I've heard some people like to step on the cord with their foot while others actually make a little seat to sit in and kinda squat? Do you have a preference? I've seriously just always found it easier to slip it into a lowering mode. I'm honestly surprised bd even puts this in there but I guess it's a tool in the toolbox.

Dillon Schwertz wrote:

yeahhhh this is that little hole in the front i was talking about. I don't actually know anyone that's done that in real life although I've seen it demonstrated. I know it's pretty darn difficult to get going but when you do it really lets loose (which is why the back up isnt just an autoblock but a munter. I've heard some people like to step on the cord with their foot while others actually make a little seat to sit in and kinda squat? Do you have a preference? I've seriously just always found it easier to slip it into a lowering mode. I'm honestly surprised bd even puts this in there but I guess it's a tool in the toolbox.

It's in the booklet because it's important to know, and there's an obvious/easy way that's a bad idea.

It's not done often because most guide devices aren't designed to make it anything other than a huge pain in the ass.

I find guide devices are easiest to use when I replace them with a Grigri.

NegativeK wrote:

It's in the booklet because it's important to know, and there's an obvious/easy way that's a bad idea.

It's not done often because most guide devices aren't designed to make it anything other than a huge pain in the ass.

I find guide devices are easiest to use when I replace them with a Grigri.

I mean, there's a time and a place for it for sure.

I've definitely belayed in parallel with an ATC much more often than two grigri. 

Dillon Schwertz wrote:

yeahhhh this is that little hole in the front i was talking about. I don't actually know anyone that's done that in real life although I've seen it demonstrated. I know it's pretty darn difficult to get going but when you do it really lets loose (which is why the back up isnt just an autoblock but a munter). I've heard some people like to step on the cord with their foot while others actually make a little seat to sit in and kinda squat? Do you have a preference? I've seriously just always found it easier to slip it into a lowering mode. I'm honestly surprised bd even puts this in there but I guess it's a tool in the toolbox.

I use the method shown in this video, starting at 1:30. using bodyweight to flip the device works really well, but i've only had to do this once or twice in real life...

​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyxeUg7_4Kk​​​

So my thought is: With a plain Jane ATC, what happens if something happens to your belayer at any point of the process? e.g. lowering, ad nauseum, etc.
I've never heard of someone having a heart attack unannounced or a seizure or a black out from low blood sugar or any other thing. Sarcasm intended.
However remote the possibility, it is still possible for something of an unexpected nature to happen; not to mention all the incidents we can read about
where the belayer got distracted or the belayer got a finger sucked in to the ATC and dropped the unsuspecting victim.

It's an odds game if you do not have a "backup". I personally have used an ATC for years and it's been my goto but with the advances in technology, we have
lots of choices for belaying which can save a life or an injury should something unexpected happen when manning the belay. I have the SMART, MEGA JUL, and
a GriGri (which is still shiny from lack of use). Currently, I'm digging the Mega Jul despite the extra thumb muscle needed for lowering with certain ropes.

I'm pretty confident if something unexpected happens with me, the belayer, and I'm using something that auto locks versus an ATC, my partner will be much happier
with me and probably less bruised or less dead. Just sayin' !!!