Using half ropes with twin technique?

If the extra impact force worries people they can always leave an extra couple of feet slack in one strand............

rgold wrote: I've basically never encountered the need to clip both to the same piece...

I've done it when I worried that rope stretch would let me hit a ledge. I'm a big guy and I fall farther than a lighter climber would from the same spot. Sometimes I want a stiffer rope, especially high on a pitch when there's a lot of rope out.

rgold wrote: I've always been a bit puzzled by these discussions, because in thirty or so years of using half ropes, I've basically never encountered the need to clip both to the same piece, the one exception being when climbing in a party of three with two climbers following simultaneously and the piece an essential directional point.  But in that case, holding a high-impact leader fall is not the primary issue...

I can think of one off the top of my head, although it's more of a desire than a need. Lets say you're on a multipitch route that makes using double ropes a good option, but on one pitch there's really no need or benefit to using half technique as opposed to twin. You're belayer would rather just pump out slack on twins than deal with managing half rope technique.

Or maybe you're climbing some multipitch sport route where you really want double ropes (and you only own halves, not twins) for raps instead of a single and tagline, but you'd rather belay as twins than halves. 

Sorry Eli, not buying any of that.  The same belayer that managed half ropes for all those other pitches can manage them for a pitch where they aren't really needed.

As for single/multipitch sport, I don't have a ton of experience but I have a bunch, and it has led me to believe that half ropes are considerably more useful for sport than most people realize, especially on the first few clips where blowing it with a handful of slack out gets you a ground fall.

My feeling is if you bring half ropes---for whatever the reason---then us 'em as half ropes.

Kevin's comment about getting a stiffer rope to mitigate a potential ledge fall makes sense in principle.  I've never done it (the best way to avoid ledge falls is to climb back to the gear until it isn't a ledge fall anymore),  and I doubt that in any real situation one has the capacity to tell how much difference the double clipping will make, but if it makes sense to the leader then that's all that matters.

rgold wrote: Sorry Eli, not buying any of that.  The same belayer that managed half ropes for all those other pitches can manage them for a pitch where they aren't really needed.

As for single/multipitch sport, I don't have a ton of experience but I have a bunch, and it has led me to believe that half ropes are considerably more useful for sport than most people realize, especially on the first few clips where blowing it with a handful of slack out gets you a ground fall.

My feeling is if you bring half ropes---for whatever the reason---then us 'em as half ropes.

Kevin's comment about getting a stiffer rope to mitigate a potential ledge fall makes sense in principle.  I've never done it (the best way to avoid ledge falls is to climb back to the gear until it isn't a ledge fall anymore),  and I doubt that in any real situation one has the capacity to tell how much difference the double clipping will make, but if it makes sense to the leader then that's all that matters.

haha well perhaps I'm just lazy. I'm still in the practicing stage (probably because I don't own them and therefore rarely use them) for belaying with halves but all else equal I'd rather be using them as twins. 

rgold wrote:

I've always been a bit puzzled by these discussions, because in thirty or so years of using half ropes, I've basically never encountered the need to clip both to the same piece

Are you suggesting that there is no reason for anyone ever to buy twin ropes?  Because if not, using halves that you already own as twins, when appropriate, seems like a perfectly good reason to clip them both to the same piece (justification being that if I can only afford 1 pair of ropes, a pair of halves is more useful than a pair of twins).

A couple specific scenarios that I can think of using my halves as twins recently:

1. Ice climbing (long rappels common, gear isn't wandering, no chance of blowing a clip)

2. Long alpine/trad routes with 2 followers, where you could otherwise get away with using a single rope

3. Any scenario where you want 2 ropes for rappel, but the belayer would prefer not to use half technique, and the benefits of halves aren't required (for example, a climb predominantly following cracks where the gear is inline).  Not every belayer is a half rope expert, and not every route has wandering pro necessitating their use.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Are you suggesting that there is no reason for anyone ever to buy twin ropes?  Because if not, using halves that you already own as twins, when appropriate, seems like a perfectly good reason to clip them both to the same piece (justification being that if I can only afford 1 pair of ropes, a pair of halves is more useful than a pair of twins).

A couple specific scenarios that I can think of using my halves as twins recently:

1. Ice climbing (long rappels common, gear isn't wandering, no chance of blowing a clip)

2. Long alpine/trad routes with 2 followers, where you could otherwise get away with using a single rope

3. Any scenario where you want 2 ropes for rappel, but the belayer would prefer not to use half technique, and the benefits of halves aren't required (for example, a climb predominantly following cracks where the gear is inline).  Not every belayer is a half rope expert, and not every route has wandering pro necessitating their use.

I think twins, meaning ropes thin enough to give a weight saving over halves, have lots of excellent applications.

1. ice is one place I'd alternate clips with half ropes, as it seems pointless to use a stiffer system with gear that can be sketchy.

2. I do this sort fairly often and almost never clip both ropes (with the exception I already mentioned).

3. I've managed to climb with belayers who either know or are quick studies for half rope technique, so belayer inability hasn't been a problem for me, but of course if you can't find a belayer who can handle the system, you'll have to clip both ropes.  But really---with an Alpine Up (I always have a spare) and 10--15 minutes of instruction, just about any already-competent (with an ACT) single-rope belayer will do fine...

Half ropes have a variety of advantages that make them useful for things besides wandering pro---people who don't use them much seem to continually ignore this point.  The one situation where a single rope seems clearly better is in pure crack climbing, where it is hard enough to stay out of the way of one rope much less two.

Spoiler Alert: I only have about 30 pitches using halves/twins. So this is largely opinion and inference.

If addition impact force is the consideration, then I would think clipping as Halves for the first few pieces (20-30ft) and then switching to clipping as twins for the rest of the pitch would make the most sense. Especially if climbing as a party of three, it would give you the best directional/traverse protection.

I have used twin technique before, but it was on a sport cragging day on what was supposed to be a multipitch Alpine trip in the Canadian Rockies. I had the halves (twin and half rated) and decided to clip them as twins... I didn't really like it, it was honestly harder to clip and the ropes would get all twisted eventually. Didn't feel good. The other time I used twin technique was on a few routes in the Dolomites, where I learnt that my NH granite and gunk's climbing did not prepare me well for Dolomites route finding and that trying to clip the right Rope on the right side was a futile effort for me. I got better at route finding by the end of the trip and switched back to half technique, but if you don't know where you are going halves can create a lot of drag...

I contacted Beal about using the cobra ii with twin technique. This is the response:

If you look at the Beal Opera and Joker. The impact forces multipliers are as follows.
1 strand @ 80kg [single] / 1 strand @ 55kg [half] = slightly less than 1.4
2 strand @ 80kg [twin] / 1 strand @ 55kg [half] = about 1.6