Thoughts on hexes?

If wires cause Hexes to lever loose, why do we use wires for nuts?

DMM hexes....bomber! Nothing else to say

Ted Pinson wrote:If wires cause Hexes to lever loose, why do we use wires for nuts?

Have you tried threading a dyneema sling through a micro nut?

Ted Pinson wrote:If wires cause Hexes to lever loose, why do we use wires for nuts?

My answer is purely speculation on my part...

I'd guess part of it is durability. Dyneema slings have to be replaced every three to five years. Wired nuts and hexes last much longer than this. As long as there is no corrosion, rust, or damage to the wire it's probably safe to use.

Another part of it maybe size and bulkiness on the gear sling or harness. Back when nuts were slung and so were old school hexes, it was knotted static cord that was used that is much more bulky.

The other part is ease of placement and the possibility to have smaller size nuts. Have you ever placed a very small slung hex? They can be somewhat awkward to place, particularly if you are placing it deep in a crack. Placing my #3 Wild Country Rockcentric often feels this way. Imagine if you would, trying to place a #1 DMM Wallnut that is on a sling (probably not realistic in terms of materials, but a good example) instead of a wire. Using your fingers by holding onto the nut itself you'd have a difficult to impossible time getting a quick and good placement. Maybe not so bad as you get into larger size nuts, but I think in general nuts benefit hugely in terms of ease and quickness of placement by having a stiff wire to push the nut into the crack and not needing your fingers to manipulate the nut. In addition, they make small and micro nuts possible.

I suspect that rock protection designers saw the big improvement that nuts had by going from a sling to a wire, and tried it with hexes. Hence the Black Diamond Hexcentrics, Camp Wired Carvex, and Metolius Curved Hexes. But the problem I see with this, and this is my own opinion, is that there is not much advantage to doing so and several disadvantages. Nuts can be placed in their three different placements positions by holding onto the wire no problem. Wired hexes can only be placed in the tapered sideways position by holding onto the wire, unless you do like some people and bend the wire at the head a bit, but it only gives you one of the two cammed positions depending which way you bend it and also likely ruins placing it in the sideways position. Once you get into the upper medium and large sizes hexes the wire is not stiff enough to hold the hex up so you lose that. Hexes need to be manipulated in position with your fingers in their two cammed positions. Using a wire on the small to small end of the medium sizes just makes it more difficult working against the resistance of the wire.

Again, this is all speculation on my part, but it makes sense. If anyone has any more accurate information about this, please do correct me.

Right, so the levering is a factor, but clearly not a deal-breaker. I can see slings on the larger Hexes, but then you'd pretty much have to give up on the idea of placing them one-handed.

as a new trad leader i have the larger hexes in my rack, BD's one of the guides i had this summer liked the wires becuase you can kind of use the wires to help get it into a spot that might be just out of reach. i dont think ill ever get the smaller hexes but i do like the larger hexes.

also just the other day i had to bail off a route and leaving a #10 hex behind was alot better than leaving a cam it also felt alot more secure bailing off a hex then a cam.

People who uttwrly discount the value of hexes usually have the luxury of a padded rack. As a relatively new trad climber without lots of money for climbing gear, hexes have saved my ass on quite a few climbs. I would only buy hexes used, but I carry a few large sizes for good stances and especially anchors.
I totally recognize that they are less useful in the higher grades, but for someone building a rack, they are extremely valuable and a great cheap way to safely get up some climbs

The argument is that they have little value once you've actually built your rack of cams, and that people who buy them to supplement their rack are better off getting more cams, which is not unsound logic. IMO the rock you climb on should dictate whether they're worth it. As I said, I have a double rack and still place Hexes from time to time (and always use them over cams when setting TR anchors), so I'm ok with my purchase, but if you think you'll eventually replace them with cams, you're better off saving your money and borrowing gear in the meantime.

Ted Pinson wrote:Right, so the levering is a factor, but clearly not a deal-breaker.

With nuts, no. I rarely have one come loose, though I tend to set them on the hard side. The benefit of wired nuts is too great for levering to be a deal breaker.

Ted Pinson wrote:I can see slings on the larger Hexes, but then you'd pretty much have to give up on the idea of placing them one-handed.

I'm not sure what your thought process with this is. I place my slung large hexes one handed all the time by holding onto the hex. It's done the same way whether wired or slung unless I'm going for the sideways tapered position with a small to medium small wired hex. In that case I can hold onto the wire to place it just like a wired nut.

In my own humble opinion you've got it backwards. If I was going to have wires on some hexes and sling on others, I'd want the slings on the smaller ones as you don't have to work against the bending resistance of the wire placing it in it's cammed position. The medium to large sizes are large enough to easily manipulate the hex with your fingers and thusly the bending of the wire resistance is not a problem. What is a problem is if you are using Black Diamond Hexcentrics or Metolius Curved Hexes that on the rock I've used them on don't set hard in their cammed position. Then the levering of the wire through rope movement is a deal breaker for me.

Ted.kemble wrote:as a new trad leader i have the larger hexes in my rack, BD's one of the guides i had this summer liked the wires becuase you can kind of use the wires to help get it into a spot that might be just out of reach.

Please step carefully in this regard. I've placed over my head more than I'd care to admit but am trying to practice myself out of it. The problem is that it is too easy to make a blind placement this way that unknowingly becomes a poor placement as you cannot always see the rock contact on the rock protection. My rule of thumb is to only do this if I can clearly see how the gear meets the rock. Much more preferable to place gear at head level if possible.

Ted.kemble wrote:i dont think ill ever get the smaller hexes but i do like the larger hexes. also just the other day i had to bail off a route and leaving a #10 hex behind was alot better than leaving a cam it also felt alot more secure bailing off a hex then a cam.

They are both secure when placed well in good rock, but you did save some money by bailing on the hex. You might want to do some ground placement practice of cams and weighting them, then bounce test it. It will give you a lot more confidence of how well they hold when placed correctly in good rock.

anotherclimber wrote:I've placed over my head more than I'd care to admit but am trying to practice myself out of it.

I think what Ted.kemble was trying to describe was placing it out of reach in terms of depth in a narrow crack rather than overhead. I think there are excellent arguments for slung hexes in the larger sizes but for the medium sizes that are just slightly larger than the largest nuts, I find the wire useful to maneuver the hex into a constriction deeper in a crack. Having the extra couple inches of reach into the crack is really useful in my experience, even though of course in those circumstances I can't place it in camming mode so I have to find a good constriction.

being a newer trad leader my insight on it is this;
I love my hexes and have the DMM's and then the BD's for where the DMM's stop on the small end. ive been forcing myself to place them to become familiar and faster at it.
the way I view hexes is use them first when youre in comfortable territory. if youre on a nice ledge throw in a hex instead of a cam and then you have that cam for later on when you might be in a crux section and be glad you still have it.
also the smaller hexes make for a nice overlap/second for nuts. theres been times where I wished I had a nut id already placed and then ive got a hex to replace it.
also as others have mentioned im much less concerned about losing or having to bail off of a hex than a cam.

I look at hexes as very essential to complete a rack but you have to view them as complimentary and not primary.
they are worth the little amount of money you have to put into them compared to buying cams and when you get good at placement youll be glad you have them

I did not read the whole thread. It went into a fishtail of who likes what and where before page two, so I jumped to the end for my say.

Excuse me if this has already been stated.

Whether someone on this forum uses or likes hexes is irrelevant. My advice, get familiar with the proper use of all types of pro you can! Somewhere along your climbing journey you will most likely encounter a Tricam, Hex, Ball Nut, or other. Maybe on someone's rack you are climbing with, found booty, help during rescue, other, etc. It is good to know what the tool you are working with is capable of and how it functions.

Hexes were made for a reason, and someone made/making a lot of money off of the design because it works, and is applicable in more ways than just one still today.

Use them or don't, but somewhere along the line you will probably be in contact with one.

Easy to place? Yes, and no.
Practical? Yes, and no.
Good for Joshua Tree? Never climbed there, but most likely a yes, and no.
Wire vs sling? Yes, and no.

It can be a case-by-case situation.

Seth Jones wrote: This makes me wonder how many hexes you have really placed. I've found plenty of places where hexes are solid and cams want to walk. Sure, they aren't as quick to place and you COULD replace almost any hex placement with a cam but sometimes it won't be as solid. Furthermore, hexes being lighter means I can carry more doubles in the large sizes without weighing myself down. But you know what they say, haters gon' hate.

+1

Yeah, IMO people mistakenly conflate the two placements. A bomber hex placement can NOT be substituted with a bomber cam placement, or vice versa. Hexes place a lot more like big nuts, the only real difference is the severity of the angle. A bomber hex placement widens up behind it so you can slot the piece in; a cam in this scenario would be questionable, as it could very easily walk its way in and open up. Conversely, Hexes require at least a slight constriction and do not place well in truly parallel cracks...this is why the real deciding factor should be where you climb and the type of rock. Trying to place a cam in a wonky, featured, slick constricting crack (Seth knows what I'm referring to) can sometimes be just as time consuming and frustrating as placing a hex.

Ted Pinson wrote:Yeah, IMO people mistakenly conflate the two placements. A bomber hex placement can NOT be substituted with a bomber cam placement, or vice versa.

My apologies if it seems like I'm constantly correcting you here. Just adding my two bits. I'm not sure if this is an oversight on your part, but in my experience it's not so black and white as that. I would choose to word it as a bomber hex placement might not be able to be substituted with a bomber cam placement and vice versa. It really depends what the placement is.

Ted Pinson wrote:A bomber hex placement widens up behind it so you can slot the piece in; a cam in this scenario would be questionable, as it could very easily walk its way in and open up.

+1 With the understanding that this is only one type of specific hex placement. I've placed hexes in horizontal parallel sided cracks with a constriction at the front that a cam would have placed fine. I've also placed hexes in almost parallel vertical cracks above a slight constriction that a cam would have also placed well too.

Ted Pinson wrote:Conversely, Hexes require at least a slight constriction and do not place well in truly parallel cracks...

If you believe that, you are missing out on one of the neatest old school tricks with hexes. They can be placed in one of their two cammed positions in a parallel horizontal crack with no constriction at all. The hex should just barely fit in the crack almost snug and not be too far deep in it so when it gets pulled to set and with a fall it pulls downward, not outward, thus rotating the hex to expand in the crack and hold. Try ground placing like this first and then weighting and bounce testing it. It's fascinating to see it hold.

That being said, knowing what I know about the performance of different brands of hexes I would only do this placement with rounded hexes that set hard, are slung hexes, and should be extended to make sure a fall pulls it downward as much as possible. That for me is the Wild Country Rockcentrics, and they work beautifully in this capacity. In my humble opinion, this is a very important to heed this warning. A hex that won't set hard, and/or is wired so it potentially gets levered loose from rope movement in this scenario could make this placement walk making it marginal, or completely fall out of the crack. I've ground tested this type of placement with DMM Torque Nuts too and it works, but I don't trust it as much as they don't set as hard as Rockcentrics.

Would a cam place faster and easier in this scenario? You're damn right it would. And in the majority of situations that would be my first choice, but it's good to know all the different types of placements that can be made with gear. I'd probably only choose to make this placement on a good stance, or worst case if I already used the correct size cam and a hex is all I had.

Ted Pinson wrote:Trying to place a cam in a wonky, featured, slick constricting crack (Seth knows what I'm referring to) can sometimes be just as time consuming and frustrating as placing a hex.

I've spent too much time with many a poor cam placement trying to get it to contact properly and sit well only to end up using a different piece of gear or find a different placement nearby that works better. Cams are not a do it all piece of gear any more than any other piece of rock protection is.

^^^....Spot On!

anotherclimber wrote: Cams are not a do it all piece of gear any more than any other piece of rock protection is.

This is the heart of the matter.

Understanding different forms of protection is analogous to understanding different techniques, belay devices, types of rock, etc.

Yeah, I'm aware that Hexes CAN be placed in parallels like you described, but this has never inspired much confidence with me and is not what I would call "bomber" like a wide constriction would be. IMO it's more trouble than it's worth, especially on lead, and in those situations, I would use a cam. That was more my point.

I advocated for hexes for a long time, used to carry way too many of them. In Red Rock, my standard rack (mainly multipitch adventure routes) is single from .1 to 4" black Pink red tricams, and 1-3 DMM torque nuts and #5-11 stoppers and 12-13 if I feel like it. With this rack you get doubles in cam sizes, plus for odd cracks that flare the hexes don't walk like cams. If you say you haven't found a place a cam would work just as well as a hex, then maybe you ought to try some more adventurous routes. This rack isn't that heavy, but I've dragged plenty double racks to 7" around that it doesn't feel like a big deal anymore. You can use the torquenuts as slings and they're cheap to leave if you need to come down. You'll get people who don't want to use hexes and tricams and complain about them. I've found plenty of two cam bail anchors, where a big single hex would have been more than bomber. You'll get people who will say you should climb harder. I like to climb in the style that makes me happy and not worry about leaving a bunch of cams behind if something goes wrong.