Rapping with a tagline - tips?

matt c. wrote:yes, I am sure. but don't take my word for it... user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/t… blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

The BD website doesn't really address different diameter ropes. The other one has a reference to it in the test results but it isn't discussed by the author.

I think there is merit in tying different diameter ropes together with figure-8's (where only the loops are together, not the knots), but have no data to support that. But that's how I have tied two starkly different diameters (10.5 and 7mm) together.

Edit: I don't use a tagline often. With twins, I use the EDK.

Alright Mr Archibald. Here is everything you need to know: EDK is totally good. Different diameter ropes are even stronger than same size 8mm. If you want a small back up because of your comfort level with the knot, that is fine. Just tie the EDK, then put a neat, overhand in one strand and push it up to the EDK to reduce the likelihood of rolling which is next to nil anyway. Also, with different diameter ropes, be sure the skinny one is one the rap side, not the tail side. This makes rolling more difficult. But, EDK's don't fail. Biner block. Totally unnecessary unless rapping with grigri. Makes pulling ropes a bitch.

The only place we need  {edited out by Admin}

Tangles on the petit. Let me guess, it was the second rappel. Here, the terrain is a bit slabby and the two ropes can wrap around each other quite easily. Trust me, I've been there, specifically on that rappel. And these twist are super strong and makes it nearly impossible to pull the ropes. Kind of like a prussic with 10 or 20 wraps. Nothing to do with new ropes, etc. To prevent, just keep tension in the tag line once the last person raps to avoid this. Rope creep with different diameter ropes? No problem. Clip into both ropes for the rappel as normal. Add an additional biner to the skinny rope to increase friction on it. Works well. Have the second rappeller waiting at the achor watch for rope creep, and grab it if necessary to stop it. Then, when the second raps, the first rapper on the ground or at next anchor can hold onto the skinny line to control rope creep. BTW, the petit can easily be done in 5 raps. From the top, rap to the Fixe anchors 160 down and slightly left. Then, on the second rap, locate the large grassy ledge 210 feet below. Rap carefully to your rope ends and down climb 10 feet of easy terrain (5.2?) to the large grassy ledge. Do the next 3 raps as normal.

rgold wrote: Bearbreeder mentioned knoting the two ropes together, but that should produce twists below the rappeller, not above. The real problem would be if such twisting happened after the lead line had been pulled up a bit and was no longer accessible, because then you wouldn't be able to reascend---you'd be super up the creek then.

ive had the exact happen scenario happen once with a biner block rap

i stupidly knotted both ends together, absolutely unnecessary since you only "need" a stopper knot on one strand ... this prevents the rope/tag from unwinding properly

one way to avoid twisting with a biner block rap is to keep the strands separated ... i simply clip the tag line to a quickdraw on my gear loop farthest from the other strand, this also prevents you from losing the strand on diagonal raps

it also pays to make sure that everything is nice and neat before you rap .. if your strands are crossed as you rap, itll twist when you pull

to prevent twist always try to throw down but ends, in this case the rope and the tag, separately in different bundles

one thing that should be noted is that the blocking biner in the OPs case is perhaps better on the main line rather than the tag ... that way the knot wont get stuck in the rings/chains

;)

Greg D wrote:Biner block. Totally unnecessary unless rapping with grigri.

The issue is whether or not you are rappelling on both strands or just on one strand with the other strand just for pulldown. In the latter case, taking Greg D's advice could get you killed. Read supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;msg=1165822#msg1165822 .

Then have a look at supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;msg=1171763#msg1171763 , which illustrates that a knot can pass through seven out of ten rap-ring setups typically found in Yosemite.

bearbreeder wrote:one thing that should be noted is that the blocking biner in the OPs case is perhaps better on the main line rather than the tag ... that way the knot wont get stuck in the rings/chains

As in

when pulling your ropes for the next rap I always toss or lower (as im pulling the lead) as much tag line as possible. We found that usually ends up being half or more of the tag line. Then you thread and toss your lead line...having tied off your tag on a bight beforehand so you don't lose is after lowering the majority and pulling yr ropes overhead. This method guarantees that not only will your ropes not wrap each other up when tossing, but (more importantly) keeps the skinny tag from snarling itself something fierce when you try to toss the full 60m at once. Also, whenever tossing any amount of tag always feed out a solid 40 feet of tail off the coil...keeps that tails from threading loops on the way down.

Yer still gonna die though. :)

Another thread about EDK strength and tag lines. Please punch me in the balls now. How about a new rule that says any post made about a topic that has already been covered at least 20 times in the last revolving year is deleted on the spot?

rgold wrote: The issue is whether or not you are rappelling on both strands or just on one strand with the other strand just for pulldown. In the latter case, taking Greg D's advice could get you killed. Read supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;msg=1165822#msg1165822 . Then have a look at supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;msg=1171763#msg1171763 , which illustrates that a knot can pass through seven out of ten rap-ring setups typically found in Yosemite. As in but I think I'd want a locking biner...

Those are good links to revisit as I am contemplating buying a tag line and using this setup. Big things that jumped out at me were a) don't put the tag line in the ATC because it is not rated for the heat that is generated during a rappel, and b) Even if the system is setup correctly, if the knot pulls over the ring, it would be near impossible to pull the rope back through it and retrieve your rope, leading to an epic.

EDIT- biner block will prevent point B as demonstrated in pictures, but you do need a beefy biner.

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote: a) don't put the tag line in the ATC because it is not rated for the heat that is generated during a rappel

Uhmm. Aren't most tag lines made from nylon? Geez...what are dynamic climbing ropes made from?

My latest tag line is Technora...so...

Had an Espirit 6mm alpine escape rope that never had an issue with rappelling heat.

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote: b) Even if the system is setup correctly, if the knot pulls over the ring, it would be near impossible to pull the rope back through it and retrieve your rope, leading to an epic. EDIT- biner block will prevent point B as demonstrated in pictures, but you do need a beefy biner.

Need to also make sure whatever block you use doesn't pop through the anchor. At least two fatalities due to this?

Epic reclimbing the rope that is securely jammed at the anchor better than the alternative...methinks.

Maybe I am not making this as hard and I need to, so surely I will die. I join my lead line to an 8mm tag line with an EDK and rap off of both strands. Thread the rope I am pulling at the next set of rings, alternate pulls and repeat until I am on the ground. 20 years later I am still here. Am I missing something. Why is this so complicated?

And, make sure you tie knots into the end of everything like they tell you in the textbooks. Otherwise, your rope won't get wedged in every crack and stuck up at the anchor like it should when you pull it.

Hmmm... Never seen that 'biner set up before. Years ago I used to get off waterfalls in the. Canadian Rockies using a 100m. 7mm and then 6mm rope, no I didn't die.

I think the 'biner may contribute to jamming, I always used the two overhand knot arrangement to join tag line and climbing rope and rappelled off both using an ATC.

Anything smaller than an 8mm is pretty squirrelly though and must be constantly monitored.

Last time I used a 7mm was descending the Super Couloir and I am NEVER using a 7mm line for this again, way too fast in an ATC and difficult to control descent rate...

rgold wrote: The issue is whether or not you are rappelling on both strands or just on one strand with the other strand just for pulldown. In the latter case, taking Greg D's advice could get you killed. Read supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;msg=1165822#msg1165822 . Then have a look at supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;msg=1171763#msg1171763 , which illustrates that a knot can pass through seven out of ten rap-ring setups typically found in Yosemite. As in but I think I'd want a locking biner...

Perhaps I wasn't clear. In order to prevent the internet replies analyzing every little minutia I should have said:

Biner block. Totally unnecessary unless rapping with a device that can only rap a single line such as a gri gri. IN ALL OTHER CASES YOU MUST PUT BOTH STRANDS IN YOUR DEVICE! IN FACT, THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO DO THIS.

Happy mr gold?

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote: a) don't put the tag line in the ATC because it is not rated for the heat that is generated during a rappel, and

What? No. In fact, putting the tag line into your atc will make it nearly impossible for the knot to pass through the rap rings. Again, this negates the need for biner block.

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote: b) Even if the system is setup correctly, if the knot pulls over the ring, it would be near impossible to pull the rope back through it and retrieve your rope, leading to an epic.

What? If the knot pulls over the rings, then you just pull the other rope. Hello.

wfscot wrote:It sounds like you're mixing two different methods. Method 1: normal two-rope rap. Thread the single rope, join to tag line (EDK), rap on both strands, pull tag line. Method 2: biner block. Thread the single rope, tie to locker (overhand/figure-8 on bight), lock back to single rope on other side of anchor (note that single is now self-secure), tie tag line to locker, rap on single rope only, keep control of tag line (clip to draw on gear loop, for example), pull tag line. It sounds like you did a little bit of both. With the EDKs and biner up there, I'm not surprised that you had problems. I personally do method 2. Method 1 seems odd and perhaps unsafe due to the different rope diameters and types (static vs dynamic) through the rap device. Regardless, you're pulling big knots and potentially a big biner. There's definitely potential to get stuck. Always good to do the test pull while your partner is still up there. Also, it's totally up to you, but you might want to reconsider two EDKs. For me, one properly-dressed EDK with plenty of tail is safe enough and much less prone to snagging.

So I've heard method two before and never had occasion to use it. I've always wondered why even bother with 7mm cord for the tagline? Since you don't weight the tagline, why couldn't you use something like 5mm or paracord? If all my weight is gonna be on the rope, it seems excessive to carry up 60m of 7mm cord.

Greg D wrote: What? If the knot pulls over the rings, then you just pull the other rope. Hello.

Unless it's a two ring rap staion.

rocknice2 wrote: Unless it's a two ring rap staion.

If it pulled through you did something wrong in the first place.

So much needless complication of a simple task going on in this thread.

Recently, I was rapping with a new partner who read about a biner block and thought we needed one with a 10mm lead line and a 7mm tag. I said it is not necessary if we put both ropes in our devices. I'm happy to go first. After I safely rapped to the ground without a biner block he decided to add the biner block anyway and rapped to the ground. What ensued after was quite amusing.

He tried to pull the rope. It would not budge. We tried together as hard as we could. It would not budge. So, I had him climb on a boulder and tie himself to the tag line. Then, I tied in 10 feet below him. Then, I began walking down the steep slope at the base. He flew off the boulder into space swing around. I continued walking/pulling myself down the steep slope. Eventually, the rope began to move inch by inch. We freed the rope. He said he was greatful that we were able to retrieve his ropes when, at first, it seemed impossible. He also said he probably didn't need the biner block and wouldn't use is again.

SinRopa wrote: I missed something, where did this advice come from?

From this link ( supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;msg=1165822#msg1165822) that rgold posted.

It's not backed up by any sort of testing. If taken to be true then the logical conclusion is to only rap on the climbing rope, which then makes the biner block or the extra knot + biner necessary in order to rap on a single strand.

Yeah I was surprised to read that since I think I have done that before...

Greg D wrote: What? No. In fact, putting the tag line into your atc will make it nearly impossible for the knot to pass through the rap rings. Again, this negates the need for biner block. What? If the knot pulls over the rings, then you just pull the other rope. Hello.

pulling on the really thin tag line with no one-way pulley or similar device doesn't sound like fun, nor does it sound like it has a high chance of success.

ethanfromwildohio wrote: So I've heard method two before and never had occasion to use it. I've always wondered why even bother with 7mm cord for the tagline? Since you don't weight the tagline, why couldn't you use something like 5mm or paracord? If all my weight is gonna be on the rope, it seems excessive to carry up 60m of 7mm cord.

I had the same question when i started using the biner block. You use a thicker ropebecause the thinner diameter ropes are much harder to pull. also if the parachord breaks you are up shit creek.

Greg D wrote: So much needless complication of a simple task going on in this thread. Recently, I was rapping with a new partner who read about a biner block and thought we needed one with a 10mm lead line and a 7mm tag. I said it is not necessary if we put both ropes in our devices. I'm happy to go first.

This way may work, but is it really the best way? Biner blocks are not that complicated. Rappleing on a 7mm rope with sharp edges does not sound like a good time. Rappling on a single 10mm sounds much safer.