Why shouldn't you clip a bent gate carabiner into the protection or bolt?

In certain respects, fatigue is typically discussed in a high number of low stress cycles. I don't disagree with the two posts offered about the high frequency, that is typical situation when loading equipment as intended.

However, fatigue is more abstract and need only to have cycles of stress which will have a cumulative effect to the point of failure. The failure will be influenced the shape, design, and where stress is placed -- a localized concentration of stress.

So I would offer that thinking in terms of #000,000 cycles may be short-sighted. In this case, there is a clear indication of higher stress by design & shape that places a fatigue problem concentrating where Petzl has indicated. I also appreciate the nicking and otherwise scuffing of the bent gate biner, which will lend a problem to the rope in the friction coef, and as well, will also promote a place for fatigue.

Buff Johnson wrote:In this case, there is a clear indication of higher stress by design & shape that places a fatigue problem concentrating where Petzl has indicated.

I dont see it as a fatigue issue. First off, it is extremely difficult to load a biner in the manner shown in the Petzl diagram in the real world. Even if you clip the rope end of the biner into the draw, you could fall on a draw 500 times and possibly never replicate the scenario shown in the diagram. Second, for fatigue to even start to play an effect, there has to be countless cycle loads. So when you take into account the improbability of the biner being loaded in the manner shown in the diagram with the number of times needed to cycle load the biner to failure by fatigue means, you come up with an impossibly high number of required lead falls. I would imagine you would completely wear through the bottom biner of the draw before you could take enough lead falls for this to be an issue.

Buff Johnson wrote:In certain respects, fatigue is typically discussed in a high number of low stress cycles. I don't disagree with the two posts offered about the high frequency, that is typical situation when loading equipment as intended. However, fatigue is more abstract and need only to have cycles of stress which will have a cumulative effect to the point of failure. The failure will be influenced the shape, design, and where stress is placed -- a localized concentration of stress. So I would offer that thinking in terms of #000,000 cycles may be short-sighted. In this case, there is a clear indication of higher stress by design & shape that places a fatigue problem concentrating where Petzl has indicated. I also appreciate the nicking and otherwise scuffing of the bent gate biner, which will lend a problem to the rope in the friction coef, and as well, will also promote a place for fatigue.

Still not fatigue.

this is why I gave up using my sport biners for trad... no matter how many times I tell my partners to use the bent gates for the rope end they never pay attn and when I'm seconding half of the time the rope is clipped through the bolt end. I finally just ponied up for wiregates specifically for my alpine draws now. You don't fall that much on bolts on trad so your biners don't get as nicked/damaged as your sport draws.

Also, now I know why manufacturers don't fix the draw on the bolt end. Learn something new every day.