New Trad climber, what's in your multi-pitch pack?

No worries, I should have explained myself better. Just get the kind of rope you think you'd use the most and go with just one. As I said, climbing and belay changes will be way quicker, so if you think you may rappel at the end you'll have gained time. Not to mention quicker and easier approaches. Have your second carry a small pack with both of you guys' shoes, water and extra food in. And wear the headlamp on the helmet - climbing helmets already come with headlamp holders on them. Carry your belay jacket on the back gear loop of your harness (most jackets stuff into their own pockets).

just thought I'd comment on the approach shoes, I've used sanuks for a while, they are similar in the flip flop line of thought but you can flip the heel up or down for hiking and then flip it down for sandle like access for cragging. The only downside on them is the traction is horrible with the default sole. They have recently come out with a 'basecamp' model that has sticky rubber soles and is basically built to be a lightweight approach shoe. They look a bit burlier than the normal version, so not quite as pancakeable for wearing hanging off your harness, but certainly better than guide tennies or whatnot. I havnt gotten to check em out in person yet, but I'm pretty sure they are just about perfect for single day mid-long length approaches and moderate walk off descents.

sanuk.com/base-camp

John Wilder wrote: you should have a discussion with your partner about this- weight alone makes it well worth it. I think that a 7mm tag line is too small, but a single 9.4 and a 60m 8.4mm trail line is the way to go for several reasons. 1) rapping on the two isnt bad at all despite the 1mm of difference, its very easy to maintain control, especially with an ATC-Guide. 2) pulling is easier than it would be with a 6 or 7mm pull line (ouch!) 3) you can lead back up to get a stuck rope on either line. 4) weight. an 8.4mm line is significantly lighter than another 9.4mm line. go with your 9.4mm as a 70m, and the 8.4mm as a 60- if you need the 8.4, you dont need anything longer than a 60m, and if you have a 70m, there are many routes in Red Rock you can get off with just a single 70m line.

John this sounds like a great idea if it works. Do you use the EDK to join the two unequal diameter ropes? Do you know of anywhere online that shows a demonstration of this that I could show to my buddy? I haven't really gotten the chance to talk to him about it yet but I did refer him to this thread.

I use a EDK to join a 8.6 and 10 mm. I did some research on that a few years ago and it looks fine.

1 headlamp for big routes? I very much disagree.

1. Try doing an epic decent in RR in the dark, like coming off of Mt. Wilson, with only 1 headlamp. 3 or 4 hours of hiking and rapping in the dark with 1 light between 2 people is a real pain.
2. If you run out of daylight and end up climbing in the dark, it is much more difficult, and dangerous, to do with only 1 light.

For any route that is more than 5 pitches or so, I bring my own headlamp.

http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2010/11/euro-death-knot.html

This has been standard for guides for years. Just go with 18" tails or a single overhand in one tail strand (with slightly shorter tails, not shorter than 12" is a good guideline). I briefly glanced at the AMGA website, but they don't put tech stuff like that on there. Every other person I work with, and everyone I climb with uses the flat overhand.

agree on the headlamps. anyone who's wandered off the backside of wilson with 1 headlamp for the party won't do it again. it's like American Express - i never leave home without it

slim wrote:i actually feel more comfortable on 4th class and low 5th class in my flip flops than i do in my clunky wooden dutch boy approach shoes. if you do some training, you can easily do a mile approach at around freezing temps with flip flops. i used to wear mine all winter long and it made my feet pretty immune to cold. the flip (flop) side of this is that when you get in a hot tub it hurts like a mother!

+1

I don't use flip-flops, but sanuks, and I swear by them. I didn't even get them resoled and feel comfortable on 4th class. They are incredibly light, and after a small modification(I cut a hole in the back of them for a biner) easy to carry on a harness.

If your feetsies get cold you can even wear socks!

Of course I wouldn't use them for the diamond if I'm topping out but have gone down the east slabs plenty of times in them.

Nick Mardirosian wrote:Do you use the EDK to join the two unequal diameter ropes?

Fat as 10.5mm paired with a 6mm cord, but, more commonly for me is 9.4 to 8.9 paired with a 6mm. I've done it a ton. For you, if you go with getting a lightweight lead climbing rope, say, a twin as small as 7.5, or a double up to 8.6 or so, then that difference when paired with a 9.4 will be pretty negligable. They'll feel very similar in an ATC type device.

Its an easy thing to check your self. Get two very different diameter cords (fat lead rope and a Prusik cord, for instance), find a hang board, tree in the backyard, take them to the gym, (etc), tie a loose in-line over hand with short tails, get on rappel and drop onto it (jump up and weight it, short fall onto a padded gym floor, etc). You might be surprised that's its very difficult to see any problem with it.

Of course, in the the "real world", you'll want long tails, and, a super snugged down knot that's tensioned from all strands going in and coming out. Bomber.

A rope, a rack, and the shirt on your back...

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

I like how this turned into arguments. You're such an instigator Nick with this controversial thread you've created :-) I apologize if I'm repeating (long thread now) but my one speed tip would be: Don't place nuts. They're slow on both ends - placing and cleaning. Clinical tests have shown they get stuck about 168.29% more often than cams and no one wants to clutter up the pitch with junk or lose the money so you end up wasting time and getting frustrated. Sure, you're forced to place them sometimes, but your team should take pride in placing as few as possible. It's hard for some people to digest because nothing makes you feel more trad than that perfectly slotted stopper. But if that perfect piece is one foot below a perfect cam that your partner had no need to save, tell your partner what you think about his mother and his lack of vision.

jeff haskell wrote:Don't place nuts.

Its taken me a while to own up to this one.
But don't worry about this for a while.
Play with nuts until you can quickly place the correct one most of the time and then go to the idea of placing cams as a first choice.

Even if you are doing a climb that you find yourself needing to place a ton of nuts, there will always be that gimme pitch that you place 3 pieces of gear.
If you are not placing a lot, then certainly don't waste time with a nut when a cam would be easier.

Playing with nuts. Heh heh...

Butt seriously... I love my keen sandals for approach and for switching into at the top of pitches. They cover the toe, stick pretty well, you can tighten them up nicely, and they clip easily into my harness with one hand.

Nick Mardirosian wrote: John this sounds like a great idea if it works. Do you use the EDK to join the two unequal diameter ropes? Do you know of anywhere online that shows a demonstration of this that I could show to my buddy? I haven't really gotten the chance to talk to him about it yet but I did refer him to this thread.

Nick,

EDK testing info...
xmission.com/~tmoyer/testin…

And yes, you can tie two ropes of different diameters with an EDK, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.

"Here is a description that, I hope, should make it clear. In order to understand the idea, tie an EDK with your two ropes. Then grab the two strands that will be weighted and pull them apart, they way the would be when you are rappelling. When you do this (or just think about doing it), you will see that these strands are trying to pry open a loop of one of the two ropes. You want that loop to be the thinner rope. The reason is that the EDK's preferred method of failing is for the knot to roll, and in order for this to happen, the pried loop has to be pulled over the loop above it. Putting the smaller diameter loop in the prying position means that the bigger diameter rope provides a larger obstacle to rolling."

mountainproject.com/v/gener…

That quote is from a post of mine. I'm surprised to see I didn't post an image, but here we go:

And here's a shot depicting which rope to tie in an extra overhand if you are so inclined. The point of the extra overhand is to choke off slack to the loop that would have to expand in order for the knot to roll.



The ends in the photos were made short to fit in the frames. The knot you actually tie should have forearm-length ends.

Tied as illustrated, the EDK in unequal diameter ropes is probably more secure than the one with equal diameter ropes.

awesome! Thanks Glenn, great pictures Rgold, it looks like we were tying the backup a bit differently too, with the safety overhand about 4-6" away from the EDK. Your way looks very secure.

I think the experience has taught you much. What's in my pack depends on how close the car is to where I am climbing. For instance back in August I went to climb at Sheep Rock which has about a 2.5 mile approach. The route is was multi pitch bolted sport route, so I brought about a liter of water, 21 draws, plus some nuts, just in case a hanger was missing. A light rain jacket, small first aid kit. Plus an extra rope we needed to rap down the route. Unfortunately I carried most everything as my bro had just come in from sea level!! LOL! If it was trad I would have had my rack. Oh, I also just photocopied the pages out of the guidebook I needed. That saved about 3 pounds!!!
But as I said above, the experience I think taught you best as we all carry different things.

Nick, tie the backup knot right up against the main knot. if you tie it away from the main knot, it will probably get stuck easier than a double fishermnan's knot.

harold, sheep rock, 2.5 mile approach? did you circumnavigate it 6 times? :)

This seems to have wandered off topic a tad...

Anyways in my multipitch pack I have 3L water, windbreaker, gloves and beanie. Small FA kit and bivy bag, fire making materials, a signal whistle and a compass. Wag bag and TP, a knife, headlamp, batteries and a light fleece depending on the time of year. Some power bars, and a bag of hard candies.

While it's a lot more then most people carry, the way I look at is that if a pound or two is making the difference between living or dying, I would feel really damned stupid stuck somewhere without the stuff.

If we do a route that requires two rope raps, the second 60 goes in a pack on my gf's back. We used to trail the second line until one got hooked on a flake and core damaged. Now it stays in the pack. She also carries her own headlamp and batteries. My pack is an REI Flash 18, the bag I usually use for ropes is a Tatonka 25.

If it's a walk off, I usually just leave my shoes clipped to the back of my harness.

I don't have a problem with those that use doubles, but they confuse the hell out of me because I don't have much time with them. One of my partners is getting a set this week so I suppose I will get it worked out more soon.

dave, i think he meant sheep rock (north face of helen's dome). harold, where the heck were you talking about? sorry to go off topic...

saxfiend wrote: There's good reasons NOT to get 70m ropes to use as doubles for multi-pitch. I'll reiterate what's already been said and add my own input: *Extra rope management headaches at the belays. *Extra weight. *Potential hazards for the second. If the intial moves on a pitch are hard and the second takes a fall, that fall will be longer due to rope stretch. And that in turn could mean your partner breaking her ankle on a ledge, or hanging in space because you couldn't take her tight. *Communication. What you gain in being able to lead longer pitches or combining pitches could be offset by no longer being able to hear or be heard by your partner. I consider that pretty important on the long Red Rock routes. *If you aren't routinely combining pitches (as noted above, there's good reasons not to, and sometimes it just isn't practical), the extra rope is a waste. And if you are routinely combining pitches, 60m ropes are usually plenty. As for using the singles for sport climbing, that's good to have the double-duty option -- but where are you sport climbing that you'd need a 70m rope? So as someone else said, I'd stick with 60m ropes if I were you. JL

just understand the routes that you are getting on. I've been on a route where the raps are set at 62m+ (or my 60m ropes were manufactured slightly short) and on a large multipitch route, that sucks bigtime when EVERY rappel comes up short.

Personally, I ONLY buy 70m ropes both single and doubles. The doubles for the reason stated above and singles, because a lot of the areas I like to climb, the routes/pitches are often 100-115ft long which is just out of the realm of a 60m rope for just lowering off.