Midline bunny ears knot that doesn't require pulling the tails through?

I set up a rappel recently off two trees using a rethreaded double figure eight and got impatient having to pull the entire length of the tails through the bight. Any nifty (and secure) rope tricks to speed up the system?

Double alpine butterfly should work, if i'm reading your question right. Two mid-line loops without needing access to the ends. 

Brian C wrote:

Double alpine butterfly should work, if i'm reading your question right. Two mid-line loops without needing access to the ends. 

Double alpine butterfly? I know how to tie them but I can't imagine how to do so around two trees without access to the ends...

Portuguese bowline would work well.  You need access to the end of the rope, but it doesn't have the tedious rethreading involved with other knots.  Google it.

Tie a huge loop alpine butterfly, use the loop to tie a bowline (technically a triple bowline) around one tree, use the backside of the butterfly to tie a triple bowline on the other tree.

mbk wrote:

Tie a huge loop alpine butterfly, use the loop to tie a bowline (technically a triple bowline) around one tree, use the backside of the butterfly to tie a triple bowline on the other tree.

That's a big honkin loop...but possible. hmmm.

Figure 8 follow-through on one tree.

Two adjacent figure 8s or overhands on bights coupled with a locker around the other tree. 

Or just sling the trees...

instead of threading the rope through the knot for the whole length, if that's the only hangup, you can just coil up the rope into a small bundle and pass that whole bundle through the hole in your knot. 

What might be best could depend on the orientation of the two trees. Somewhat likely a bowline (on the higher tree) and a bowline-on-the-bight (lower tree) would be the easiest. The rope end and the “bight” end need to be secured. 

if what you're after is a simple bunny ears at the mid point of your rope then pull up a nice sized bight and tie an 8. then instead of tightening it, lay the bight over the knot and pull up the loops on the top. presto. kirkpatrick covers this knot in Down and i think you can also find it at alpine savvy 

Hello Branon,

I have been tied up in knots trying to understand your situation given the information you provided...

The image below is my understanding of what you had tried to achieve. I've likely misunderstood you? (the black carabiners represent your 2 trees).

I set up a rappel recently off two trees using a rethreaded double figure eight

Okay, so it wasn't a retrievable system - it was a fixed abseiling (rappelling) rope. You descend to bottom, then walk back to top.

The assumption appears to be that no single tree was sufficiently solid and reliable - forcing you to select and use 2 trees? The spacing between the trees is not given.

And then you appear to prefer (or desire) to tie a Double F8 eye knot via a re-threading method - and configure the entire system from one (singular) rope?

It appears you either don't have spare slings and carabiners or you don't want to use them? Its unclear which...

and got impatient having to pull the entire length of the tails through the bight. Any nifty (and secure) rope tricks to speed up the system?

Just further trying to understand your situation:

You got impatient... okay, that's a personal issue. Never be in hurry to die:) 

In terms of tails (plural) - I'm trying to understand what you mean by "tail(s)".

In terms of pulling an entire length of "tails" through the "bight"... If we are talking about the same thing (ie Tying a Double F8 eye knot via re-threading) this is a tedious way to tie this particular knot - it implies that you fed the rope directly around each tree without the use of slings and carabiners. My understanding of this particular knot is that there is only one (1) "tail". Maybe we have a different understanding of what a "tail" is? Also not clear on exactly what you mean by "bight".

In terms of any "nifty" "tricks" - from my point of view, I would use an entirely different configuration (and also assess the trees to determine if a single tree is sufficient).

I'm with Mark on this. Branon, it feels like you are asking the wrong question: I don't know anyone who uses bunny ears, rethreaded 8s, or butterflies to build tree anchors. There are many ways to build safe and efficient tree anchors, and the best way depends on what exactly you are trying to do. In-person instruction is best, but if not, check out John Long's book on anchors, Alpine Savvy's web article series on tree anchors, and Summit Seekers on YouTube.

Just to jump into this discussion about tying ropes around trees...when making tree anchors I have started to use wide, heavy duty construction slings, as pictured below.

I do this often when setting up top rope anchors for partnered climbing or TRS, especially but not only for ice.  I don't like the idea of using narrow slings or thin ropes around trees.  Perhaps the arborists can provide some insight, but I worry about damage to the tree, especially in popular areas and in winter.  

So I use these wide construction slings.  The ones I have are significantly wider than shown, so they distribute the load over a large area.  They have nice sewn eyes, and they are relatively inexpensive.  

Of course, this solution won't be appropriate for all settings, but for anywhere with easy access and known tree anchors, I'd consider the possibility. 

Use a bowline on a bight.

Good suggestion Bruno. I haven’t done that for fixing a rope to 1 or 2 trees, which I have done only a few times, using bowline knots. (Many times with climbing slings) But I have tied mules and horses in the back country to trees using “tree savers”, which can be purchased from equine gear retailers  that cater to packers. Tree savers are similar to the construction slings

Zero rethreading needed. Imagine the back carabiners are trees. This image was me showing a riggers group how to "lock" this kind of rig for redundancy.

Take the sharp end and walk around the two trees, come back to the main line and tie a butterfly with both strands leaving good amount of slack in the big ass loop you created around the 2 points.
Make sure you have enough slack to pull from in between the two trees back to the knot you just tied to make said loop.
Clip back the butterfly to the strand you pull between the trees and determine direction of load. Clove that spot to lock it in.

The caver in me is shrieking in pain at the thought of anchoring to two separate worthy, healthy trees, but I wasn't there, so I'll leave that alone.

It would use a ton of rope, but if the trees weren't that big, you could just make a gigantic Figure-8 bunny-ears, and girth hitch the first tree. Pass the whole rope through the loop in hand-fulls, then tension. The second tree is a problem. Use a biner and "choke" the second ear. I don't really like this method, but it would work.

Best case, is use 1" webbing in a wrap-3 pull-2 around the tree(s.) There's enough surface area there, that it shouldn't damage the bark. Next best option is 1" webbing and basket-hitch the tree. Again, lots of surface area, and shouldn't hurt the bark. Substitute slings for the basket-hitch if you wanted, but pad the bark. Your rope bag, hoody, etc. would work fine.

Mark Gommers wrote:

Hello Branon,

I have been tied up in knots trying to understand your situation given the information you provided...

The image below is my understanding of what you had tried to achieve. I've likely misunderstood you? (the black carabiners represent your 2 trees).

Okay, so it wasn't a retrievable system - it was a fixed abseiling (rappelling) rope. You descend to bottom, then walk back to top.

The assumption appears to be that no single tree was sufficiently solid and reliable - forcing you to select and use 2 trees? The spacing between the trees is not given.

And then you appear to prefer (or desire) to tie a Double F8 eye knot via a re-threading method - and configure the entire system from one (singular) rope?

It appears you either don't have spare slings and carabiners or you don't want to use them? Its unclear which...

Just further trying to understand your situation:

You got impatient... okay, that's a personal issue. Never be in hurry to die:) 

In terms of tails (plural) - I'm trying to understand what you mean by "tail(s)".

In terms of pulling an entire length of "tails" through the "bight"... If we are talking about the same thing (ie Tying a Double F8 eye knot via re-threading) this is a tedious way to tie this particular knot - it implies that you fed the rope directly around each tree without the use of slings and carabiners. My understanding of this particular knot is that there is only one (1) "tail". Maybe we have a different understanding of what a "tail" is? Also not clear on exactly what you mean by "bight".

In terms of any "nifty" "tricks" - from my point of view, I would use an entirely different configuration (and also assess the trees to determine if a single tree is sufficient).

Tied up in knots...you're a dad, aren't you? Glad I'm in good company. 

It wasn't a retrievable system.

I set up a single rope rappel for my son and his wife and he's not a fan of single anchor systems...either of the trees would have been adequate (8" live Eastern white pine trunks sitting about 2 ft apart and both about 2 ft from the cliff edge). I did not have any slings or extra lockers available at the time.

After thinking about the situation in hindsight I realized there could be some good utility in knowing a smooth solution if I wanted to set it up for double rope rap and (mentally) further complicated it by not being able to pull the ends--I've had that situation come up with both a snagged catastrophe knot and a tree snag, though at that time we had a second rope. The bulk of my question was aimed at a hypothetical situation sparked by some real-life experiences.

No spare slings or extra locking carabiners were available at the time and I knew my son wouldn't be comfy with non-lockers. In the hypothetical situation the less equipment needed/left behind the better (imo).

I don't rush--regardless of my patience--and I'm never in a hurry to die, but I have learned the value of being able to move quickly when needed.

The fastest way I know to tie a rethreaded 8 bunny ears around two anchors is to loop both anchors, loosely rethread the 8, and then pull the loop side of the bight back into the 8 and loop it back around itself, similar to tying a double bowline on a bight at the end of a sling. This only really applies to the hypothetical situation because I didn't set up a double strand rap for my son.

Thanks for the detailed questions and taking the time to consider this.

@DevanBee, I am very familiar with all those resources and they are excellent. I was looking for experiences/insight into a hypothetical that was prompted by the situation and which I don't believe I've seen covered by John Long's book, Alpine Savvy, or Summit.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Zero rethreading needed. Imagine the back carabiners are trees. This image was me showing a riggers group how to "lock" this kind of rig for redundancy.

Take the sharp end and walk around the two trees, come back to the main line and tie a butterfly with both strands leaving good amount of slack in the big ass loop you created around the 2 points.
Make sure you have enough slack to pull from in between the two trees back to the knot you just tied to make said loop.
Clip back the butterfly to the strand you pull between the trees and determine direction of load. Clove that spot to lock it in.

This is a beautiful solution! It would still require a spare carabiner, but I like the redundancy and simplicity. Honestly, if the anchor stayed tensioned you could very reasonably use a wire-gate, though I would prefer the gate away from the rock. Thank you!!

edit: I just had the thought that you could tie the large bight into the loop of the alpine if you didn't have a carabiner. 

J Ashley73 wrote:

The caver in me is shrieking in pain at the thought of anchoring to two separate worthy, healthy trees, but I wasn't there, so I'll leave that alone.

It would use a ton of rope, but if the trees weren't that big, you could just make a gigantic Figure-8 bunny-ears, and girth hitch the first tree. Pass the whole rope through the loop in hand-fulls, then tension. The second tree is a problem. Use a biner and "choke" the second ear. I don't really like this method, but it would work.

Best case, is use 1" webbing in a wrap-3 pull-2 around the tree(s.) There's enough surface area there, that it shouldn't damage the bark. Next best option is 1" webbing and basket-hitch the tree. Again, lots of surface area, and shouldn't hurt the bark. Substitute slings for the basket-hitch if you wanted, but pad the bark. Your rope bag, hoody, etc. would work fine.

Yeah, the caver and canyoneer in me are both with you--In canyoning I've heard several guides talk about "safety theater" but my son is partial to the idea of (unnecessary) redundancy. That said, the feeling would change if all I had were a couple smaller saplings or a pair of smaller outcroppings. Honestly, if I hadn't had a real-life scenario where both tails were trapped (snagged stopper knot and a tree snag) I probably wouldn't have even thought to ask.

Hello again Branon,

I've attached 2 photos summarising the solutions to your original post.

'Mr Rogers' also had shown the Doubled Butterfly knot in his post - his understanding of how a Butterfly knot can be applied is excellent.

The Doubled Butterfly knot is very stable and secure in this loading profile - but it does require one carabiner - so if you don't have any spare carabiners, best not to use this configuration.

The F8 solution does not require a carabiner.

There is also another solution involving the use of a 'Bowline With a Bight' (note the use of the word "with")...