what is your rappel setup for alpine?

Double length girthed to belay loop, ATC attached via a clove 6” out. Easier to untie than the standard overhand, especially on dyneema or partial dyneema slings. 

OP should have plenty of inspiration by this point😊

Petzl connect adjust with 6 feet of hyper-static 6mm Petzl PUR Line. Locker and ATC on a clove 

Daniel Roctapod wrote:

The technique became more standardized when analysis of climbing accidents showed that there were enough incidents where the leg-tied third hand backup would disengage if the user's waist or leg would lift or twist. The rappel extension allows the third-hand to be attached at the belay loop, which keeps the backup centered on the rope and isn't affected by any twisting or lifting of the leg. 

Definitely agree with all of the above. Backing up a rappel is a really good idea, and it’s much more convenient than leg wraps when you need to go hands free. I typically extend and use a third hand, but still occasionally guilty of using a third hands off the leg loop or no third hand at all depending on the circumstances. 

Since you mentioned the accident data, I’m curious how many accidents have you seen documented where losing control of the rope was the primary cause of the incident, much less losing control and having the third hand tend on the rappel device. From what I’ve seen, the overwhelming majority of rappelling accidents are caused by a failure to close the system or an error in setting up the ATC, or some other setup error. I also routinely see people tying their autoblocks poorly enough that they don't hold reliably even when they utilize an extension. 

I don’t mean to say it never happens, I have a dear friend who was nearly killed on a search mission when he lost control of the brake strand. lots of contributing factors, a classic combo of small things adding up. He was an experienced rappeller, but by no means someone who does it everyday he was rapping a skinny single strand setup of climbing rope with an ATC that wasn’t optimized for skinny ropes, he’s a larger guy and was wearing a backpack which contributed to throwing off his balance as he rappelled over a lip. It was dark out. Etc etc. His autoblock didn’t catch, he either impeded it from Catching or it wasn’t tied in a way to grip such a skinny rope with a large load. I’d guess the latter or both. He never let go of the rope, burnt all the way through a pair of gloves and most of the way to the bone through his skin, there simply was never enough friction to begin with. Outside of rapping on really skinny twins or tag lines, I’d say the combination of factors above is pretty rare among what most recreational climbers are doing.

All this is to ask, how often are people with any amount of experience rappelling just letting go of the rope or losing control in a way that can’t recover? how often are people getting hit in the head with rocks hard enough to make them let go but not killing them?

To add to the OP I like the connect adjust but if I’m leaving it at home on a fast and light I’m using whatever I have handy, usually a double length sling tied on with a bowline or with an overhand. Nylon is great but I don’t typically carry any nylon slings. Throwing a non locker inside the  overhand knot makes it a lot easier to get out and probably increases the strength in dyneema since it makes the angles less severe and the material bites into itself less. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Since you mentioned the accident data, I’m curious how many accidents have you seen documented where losing control of the rope was the primary cause of the incident, much less losing control and having the third hand tend on the rappel device. From what I’ve seen, the overwhelming majority of rappelling accidents are caused by a failure to close the system or an error in setting up the ATC, or some other setup error. I also routinely see people tying their autoblocks poorly enough that they don't hold reliably even when they utilize an extension. 

....

All this is to ask, how often are people with any amount of experience rappelling just letting go of the rope or losing control in a way that can’t recover? how often are people getting hit in the head with rocks hard enough to make them let go but not killing them?

I can't attest to how many I've personally read that were documented. I do remember watching a video from AAC or AMGA or some such governing body explaining what I stated above in their reasoning for the switch. Perhaps there was a high profile accident that tipped the scales of convention? Not sure. A cursory search online returned a figure of ~20% of rappel accidents are due to improper or missing friction hitch backup. Of course that number is likely highly variable as most posthumous data is making educated guesses on cause and context.

Anyway, I never needed a number to convince me to use an extended rappel. The part of my hand between my thumb and my index finger got sucked up into my belay device a few times with the other method and when a friend taught me the extended rappel nearly twenty years ago, I never went back.

The AMGA heavily promotes the rappel extension and no doubt has had a big influence over the last 2 decades, when I started climbing hardly anyone used an extension, now most do, especially those who have started in the last 10 years. The I only reason I bring it up is I’ve followed AAC ANAM for years, even wrote several of accidents reports for it. The instances I’ve read about people just completely losing control of the rope is very rare. You’d think it would be more of a cause than it is and when it does happen there’s almost always additional contributing factors (skinny ropes, tension traversing, etc)

Daniel Roctapod wrote:

The technique became more standardized when analysis of climbing accidents showed that there were enough incidents where the leg-tied third hand backup would disengage if the user's waist or leg would lift or twist. The rappel extension allows the third-hand to be attached at the belay loop, which keeps the backup centered on the rope and isn't affected by any twisting or lifting of the leg. 

In 50+ yrs, I never extend, and almost never 3rd hand. We're talking light and fast, yeah?

Extensions and third hands seem so dated since assisted belay braking devices (ABD) like GigaJuls became dialed liked 10 years ago. Yeah shots fired and all that, but when I'm rapping an ice climb at night with someone faffing with an extension and third hand, I die a little due to all the time lost for no safety gained. I would argue that my GigJul locks more reliably than someone wrapping a thin cord x amount of times around the ropes. 

I said it before and I'll say it again, when Petzl FINALLY releases an assisted belay/rap device (maybe one that doesn't wear out in a season like a Reverso), the AMGA is going to be falling over themselves making videos explaining that extensions and third hands should be discontinued immediately, and then will be telling us that hollow blocks are unreliable because they are like hollow

Maybe I’m gunna die but I use two alpine draws from my harness to either anchor bolt. No extension and a third hand on a leg loop. I honestly have never had an issue and I’ve done hundreds of rappels this way… what am I missing?

peterfogg wrote:

Maybe I’m gunna die but I use two alpine draws from my harness to either anchor bolt. No extension and a third hand on a leg loop. I honestly have never had an issue and I’ve done hundreds of rappels this way… what am I missing?

Have you ever had to ascend the rope using the ATC? Wayyyyy easier to do in guide mode and that requires an extension (if not starting from the ground).

i always carry cord for replacing tat. usually a 12-14 ft loop.   Double Loop Bowline, Butterfly, Double loop 8.  I like the redundancy in this setup. 

rob bauer wrote:

In 50+ yrs, I never extend, and almost never 3rd hand. We're talking light and fast, yeah?

You do you buddy. No problems here.
 It doesn’t cost you any extra weight to use a sling you’re already carrying, so it’s still light. And considering the number of accidents that happen on decent, the 30 seconds to tie the thing isn’t where I’m choosing to shed time. I’ll get up 30 seconds earlier in that case. 

Doug Hutchinson wrote:

Extensions and third hands seem so dated since assisted belay braking devices (ABD) like GigaJuls became dialed liked 10 years ago. Yeah shots fired and all that, but when I'm rapping an ice climb at night with someone faffing with an extension and third hand, I die a little due to all the time lost for no safety gained. I would argue that my GigJul locks more reliably than someone wrapping a thin cord x amount of times around the ropes. 

I said it before and I'll say it again, when Petzl FINALLY releases an assisted belay/rap device (maybe one that doesn't wear out in a season like a Reverso), the AMGA is going to be falling over themselves making videos explaining that extensions and third hands should be discontinued immediately, and then will be telling us that hollow blocks are unreliable because they are like hollow

Ironic that you use the ice climbing example because that's where an ABD had the best chance of failing. ABDs on iced up ropes have major issues maintaining enough friction while rappelling near the end of ropes. There are few things as unnerving as death gripping the rope as you gingerly pull back on the grigri handle hoping the rope doesn't slip through the device like a rocket. Ask me how I know. The same principle applies to GigaJuls and equivalent, which already have issues providing enough breaking power with thin (<8mm) ropes. It continues to amaze me how many ice/alpine climbers are ignorant of this limitation.

I'm quite certain tube devices and third hands aren't going to be going the way of a figure 8 anytime soon.

B F wrote:

Petzl connect adjust with 6 feet of hyper-static 6mm Petzl PUR Line. Locker and ATC on a clove 

This is the way, a grivel plume hms for the atc biner and a slider for the adjust.

Tony Danza wrote:

Have you ever had to ascend the rope using the ATC? Wayyyyy easier to do in guide mode and that requires an extension (if not starting from the ground).

That's my killer feature. Switching back to ascent mode just means adding a carabiner and moving your friction hitch. You never risk coming off the rope like you do otherwise. 

that guy named seb wrote:

This is the way, a grivel plume hms for the atc biner and a slider for the adjust.

So not more twistlock for the adjust?

Daniel Roctapod wrote:

I like this setup, but I’d want more distance between my harness and the tube device. I’ve gotten used to clipping my third hand at my belly loop and this doesn’t seem to provide enough space for that to work.

You can extend the loop the atc is on all the way to the bartack on the sling, it's definitely far enough to keep the third hand on your belay loop.

Bel Aoros wrote:

So not more twistlock for the adjust?

Personal preference, the twistlock works really well but I think the slider is a bit easier. definitely an argument to be made regarding a slider biner requiring more rubber things to keep the adjust in place.

that guy named seb wrote:

Personal preference, the twistlock works really well but I think the slider is a bit easier. definitely an argument to be made regarding a slider biner requiring more rubber things to keep the adjust in place

Photo? 

J H wrote:

Photo? 

My girlfriend’s PAS that I sorted out, it uses a nice soft 8mm(7mm?) cord that’s super smooth and she uses my old oval slider that sadly doesn’t work with pur line.

Probably just as good to use as the pur line albeit less abrasion resistant thus requiring more frequent replacement.