Shots fired by Edelrid re: tube style belay devices vs PCDs

Hi Adam, so many things that could be addressed. Maybe just stick with the issue of belay escape now? Or belaying from the harness vs directly off the anchor? Or using a (somewhat) self locking belay method vs one that is easy to either take in or pay out the rope or full on lower? Or discuss the pros and cons of keeping things simple vs adding specialized pieces of gear to the kit that help with just one thing (or possibly more than one)? By

Or maybe discuss competence? All those things you suggest as being desirable (and they are!), and more, come naturally as competence increases. I am ok with discussing any of them.

Hey LL, I decided this spring to get a new belay device, and bought a Verso, not Reverso, for the reasons you and others explain. It works very nicely. If I ever have a compelling reason to belay “guide mode”, I can always use a Munter, or a Garda. Whichever fits the situation.

Lovegasoline Lovewrote:

In my own experience there's more to botch with Grigris than with tube devices and I so often see them poorly operated. OTOH, I like both belaying and being belayed on aid with a Grigris because it permits a partner to fall asleep while belaying (catching up on sleep is beneficial on a wall and increases safety). 

Adam Flemingwrote:

Repeat after me: guide mode is not hands free. 

There are a few different known failure modes with plates:

• Traverses while belaying two followers 
• Carabiners between the load and the brake strand 
• Skinny ropes. 

Here's a video of a skinny rope inverting inside a plate. Notice I even have the blocking carabiner clipped in a way that supposedly mitigates this risk. I switched to a one-way munter hitch after observing this failure. 

Companies have come out with belay plates with smaller apertures to address this, but they negate one of the benefits of skinny ropes (less friction while belaying). The PCD belay with a <4kN screamer seems like the best of both worlds and I've been using it a lot more. Downside is now I need to bring another device to rappel. 

I had an IFMGA guide tell me guide mode is hands free provided the device hangs free, doesn’t have a high piece/LSD, or the traverse where middle climber is unclipped from last piece between them and the device. That’s been my experience as well, though I’ve not belayed with sub 9mm ropes either. 

Tony Danzawrote:

I had an IFMGA guide tell me guide mode is hands free provided the device hangs free, doesn’t have a high piece/LSD, or the traverse where middle climber is unclipped from last piece between them and the device. That’s been my experience as well, though I’ve not belayed with sub 9mm ropes either. 

I'll be honest, on thicker ropes I sometimes follow those guidelines as well. But I definitely default to a knot and absolutely teach always tying a knot. It takes about a second and can keep you from killing your partner. 

Adam Flemingwrote:

I'll be honest, on thicker ropes I sometimes follow those guidelines as well. But I definitely default to a knot and absolutely teach always tying a knot. It takes about a second and can keep you from killing your partner. 

I do that whenever I’m gonna go hands free for more than a few seconds, but if I need to get the ropes tight, I won’t hesitate to let go of one.

Lovegasoline Lovewrote:

Grigris are my least favorite belay device esp. due to being shorted on the rope while clipping

Dont hate the player, hate the game. Wait. Errrr. In this case, yes...hate the player...because theyre doing it wrong.

Edelrid has really been paying a lot of attention to the mulitpitch world in regards to R&D recently. I'll put out a guess that they come out with a new "belay from above device" in the next few years. Pinch (grigri) for lead, XYZ for top belay. Light weight,very low friction, higher fall force than 4kn...etc

In regards to a comment earlier about a "solution looking for a problem" - yes. Welcome to the exciting world of product development :)