Shots fired by Edelrid re: tube style belay devices vs PCDs

Munter uses half the gear of a Garda, plus you can lower with it ;)

Ben Zartmanwrote:

To my ancient mind, all this seems like a solution looking for a problem.  Since my earliest days of multi-pitch climbing, everyone belayed with a tube, plate, ATC, or figure 8 right off the harness, whether leading or bringing up a second (there were no "guide mode" devices in common use). When belaying a follower, we simply ran the rope from the harness-mounted device, through a directional carabiner on a convenient anchor piece, and down to the follower.  So the motion was simply that of taking up slack, as you would a toproper.

Is there any reason the knowledge base oracle can give for abandoning this practice, with which many of us climbed thousands of pitches quickly, efficiently, and safely?  We had methods of "escaping the belay" if the follower needed rescue; and our devices were bombproof when used correctly.  I have sticht plates almost 40 years old that still give satisfaction.  Now we're belaying with a toothed cam that can easily tear a rope cover, or using a grigri which no longer brakes hands-free the way they used to?  Why is gear getting dumber?

Feels weird to agree with you 

PWZwrote:

Feels weird to agree with you 

Embrace it....it's a happy place.

Out of curiosity, I watched a bunch of “trad” climbing in Britain YouTube’s last night. Picking out modern ones, as many of them multipitch as possible.  Just about all of them both leader and follower belayed with a tube device in regular (?, that is NOT in guide mode) fashion , mounted on the harness. Except for one follower belay by, god forbid, a hip belay.
A point of embarrassment: the occasional American commenting on how dangerous the belaying was. I even saw a comment declaring the Brits were stupid.

It was heartening to watch these people so obviously enjoying the climbing.

Boreal Strut wrote:

That's really eye opening to consider. I feel blessed that my mentors showed me the critical importance of learning how to belay escape in any situation. It's not that tricky, and IMHO is a mandatory skill to know

People think multipitch climbing is just knowing how to go up and down. They don't consider what to do when shit hits the fan. Granted, it's rare to have a big enough issue to need to escape the belay. But knowing the procedure is incredibly valuable when someone needs your help. 

Not gonna lie, guide mode belaying off the anchor can be a pain in the ass, but it's better to practice it and find how it works to make any crisis that much easier. I'd never yell at someone for doing it off the harness if they're otherwise anchored properly, I just know the few times I've tried practicing escaping the belay from the harness it's been a massive clusterfuck. Anchored I can just block the device and single rope rap down for rescue easy peasy. 

Adam Flemingwrote:

People think multipitch climbing is just knitting how to go up and down. They don't consider what to do when shit hits the fan. Granted, it's rare to have a big enough issue to need to escape the belay. But knowing the procedure is incredibly valuable when someone needs your help. 

Good point. Belay escape is one little piece. It’s just a tool. But, why is it, in your opinion, that average (? my word, not yours) climbing people are so challenged by learning this one little tool?

Yeah I am putting you on the spot Adam. It isn’t personal. You post a lot of very good information on this website. “IMHonestO”. 

Eric Craigwrote:

Good point. Belay escape is one little piece. It’s just a tool. But, why is it, in your opinion, that average (? my word, not yours) climbing people are so challenged by learning this one little tool?

Yeah I am putting you on the spot Adam. It isn’t personal. You post a lot of very good information on this website. “IMHonestO”. 

No offense taken! And thank you!

I get hired for self rescue sessions every now and then. I think the reason why people struggle with learning it is because it's not fun (for most people, I freaking love it) and it's not climbing (but it's climbing adjacent). 

So 5.11 badass trad climber realizes he should learn some skills in case his buddy gets hurt. We start with the MMO and he just can't understand it, keeps messing it up, or tying it correctly but poorly so that it messes up the next step. He gets frustrated. "But I'm good at climbing! Why am I not good at this!?". He doesn't want to put in the work because it's using a completely different part of his brain and the flow state isn't there yet. Then if he actually does learn the skills he doesn't use them regularly enough to maintain them. 

TLDR: people falsely equate climbing skill to rope skills. Rope skills aren't fun for most people. 

For anyone wanting to boost their skills, I do video calls where we can learn self rescue. I also work throughout the west; based in SLC, to down to Moab a lot, in the Winds in the summer, Red Rock in the winter. 

Good video for folks to watch to understand that there is much nuance in climbing gear and sneaky failure modes in the devices they may trust fairly blindly.

Escaping belays, breaking into tight lines, descending tight lines, pick offs, simple haul systems, actually practicing using münters, ascending/descending with prussic(s), and more, IMO should all be practiced by people who are doing multi's, alpine stuff, or in general getting out there where cell service, or help is not somewhat readily available.

A little plug for the SULU as it can make some of the harder and super inefficient tasks on that short list a much easier scenario to deal with, which could pay major dividends when shit hits the fan.

Adam, 

I completely agree that gear skills and climbing skills are different by their nature, and learning/processing them is different. Blending the skills together in the moment on routes, is what makes for competence.
What I see, as an OG, and as one of the earliest Americans to learn and use so many of the rope/gear technical skills discussed at length on MP and elsewhere (like everywhere else) is, different than what you see.

Mr. Roger’s, please educate me, what is SULU?

Also, why even consider using methods that have “sneaky failure modes” when they are completely unnecessary ? Maybe their use is ok by sophisticated and savvy people, but maybe their use by the masses is inappropriate? Or even just encouraging that use?

To say that the answer (regarding SULU) provided below, is a disappointment, would be an understatement. I was expecting some cute acronym/pneumonic kinda thing. I apologize for what I initially wrote here, and now edited.

Eric Craigwrote:

Adam, 

I completely agree that gear skills and climbing skills are different by their nature, and learning/processing them is different. Blending the skills together in the moment on routes, is what makes for competence.
What I see, as an OG, and as one of the earliest Americans to learn and use so many of the rope/gear technical skills discussed at length on MP and elsewhere (like everywhere else) is different than what you see.
Mr. Roger’s, please educate me, what is SULU?

SULU Go

I've used an ATC for 32 years with no problems, even belaying my ex-husband, who weighed 100 pound more than me. On the other hand, I find the GriGri a PITA to use, especially since I'm left handed, and I think when you drop to autoblock to feed rope it makes it more likely you'll drop your partner if you aren't really on it With an ATC, all I need to do is pull the rope down and to my left (belaying with my left hand). Never had an issue. Don't have an issue using an ATC when partners are working a route and falling a lot either. 

I'm in the camp of not really wanting to lead when being belayed by an ATC. I don't think someone is very likely to drop me with one if they're doing a halfway competent job, but the fact is that if they lose control of the brake strand, I will be dropped. On a grigri, if the belayer loses control of the brake strand, I might be dropped, but really there's a quite good chance I won't be.

It's not personal—I trust that you're competent with your atc, but if you get hit by rockfall, you trip on a rock while belaying dynamically, you have a stroke, I'm a goner and I don't want that. We can't mitigate against every risk, and these scenarios that could harm me are not super likely. But couple that with the fact that to a lot of us, a grigri (or a pinch) does just about everything better AND is objectively safer, there's no downside. From my POV, feeling like a gri is difficult to use is user error or just being stuck in your ways, neither of which is a particularly admirable trait.

It's silly to turn this thread into a tube vs ABD debate—but for the folks here saying, essentially, "I'VE never had an issue with a tube so there's nothing to be concerned about"—it's willful ignorance of some valid concerns, and I really appreciate the Edelrid Knowledge Base for highlighting that.

Eric Craigwrote:

Adam, 

I completely agree that gear skills and climbing skills are different by their nature, and learning/processing them is different. Blending the skills together in the moment on routes, is what makes for competence.
What I see, as an OG, and as one of the earliest Americans to learn and use so many of the rope/gear technical skills discussed at length on MP and elsewhere (like everywhere else) is, different than what you see.

I'd love to hear more about the old school methods and rationale. I have a regular client who started climbing around '74, her husband started in '72. As they age, they want to learn the faster, lighter, more secure, more efficient methods. Last time we were out he mentioned belaying on the harness exclusively (I did a shoulder belay for them) and we had a good talk about why I like belaying on the anchor, tools to do so, and risks to be aware of. They're very open to learning, which I love to see in climbers. 

I'm curious what you mean by you see different things than me out there. 

I'm personally very willing to learn about and try new things, both in my guiding and recreational climbing (simuling, big wall systems, speed big wall systems), but I know most people stick to their known systems because those have kept them alive so far. 

Mr Rogerswrote:

A little plug for the SULU as it can make some of the harder and super inefficient tasks on that short list a much easier scenario to deal with, which could pay major dividends when shit hits the fan.

So nice to see someone else recognising the numerou rescue applications for the sulu, it’s an amazingly versatile brilliant for simul climbing and various rescue scenarios. A weight premium for sure but an incredible multitpitch device.

It’s such a shame it’s a bit of a led down for belaying the second in guide mode.

The Edelrid video is informative and well presented, I applaud them arming climbers with more knowledge

I’ve experienced a partial version of this guide mode failure - when the follower fell the upper strand nearly inverted (it was more of a slow pull inversion with rope strands side by side. I could counteract it by tending the brake strand, but the climber had to unweight the rope in order to correct the belay). I was using a 9mm single rope and the device was rated down to 8.1mm. The follower weighed more than 80kg which seems important to note given the testing standards can use average climber mass

It's not 100% clear what happened (besides the belayer going hands free and then grabbing the wrong strand in an attempt to catch the fall), but a properly loaded tube style device in guide mode was involved in this accident

https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201217220

I truly don't understand why this is a conversation, and now I'm wondering if I'm actually the idiot here... You keep your hand on the brake strand. That's not news. What else is there to talk about?

I like that these conversations are happening, I think that there's a lot of knee-jerk "you're gonna die" reactions to using a PCD for follower belay and my main takeaway is that every common top-anchor follower belay method has its potential failure modes. I'm pretty sure that in the AMGA curriculum 10 years ago they were treating belay plates and tubes as hands-free in guide mode, which obviously isn't appropriate for many combos of device + rope diameter.

I like using a PCD for follower belays on straightforward pitches where there isn't much traversing or opportunity for slack in the rope at the belay; they let you do some nice efficiency tricks at transitions and just generally make my elbows less sad than a gri or tube when I'm climbing multipitch six days a week. I don't generally advocate them for folks who are climbing & belaying at lower volumes where they're not worried about overuse injuries from belaying, though, since imo you really have to be careful about how and when you use them to avoid issues like the fall-factor stuff that Edelrid has been good about testing and publicizing, or more subtle things like the toothed cam snagging on a clove hitch situated next to it on the anchor and accidentally defeating the cam (have seen that happen with a climbing partner's spoc and it's spooky. Seems less of a problem with the micro trax since it's got more coverage from the side plates and also switches to ridges rather than teeth at the end of the cam; I just rig my anchors so that there's never anything sitting on the cam side of the micro trax that can snag).

Anyways, my takeaway is that while there are plenty of wrong ways to set up a follower belay, there's no one right way, and the most important thing is to have a reason for doing what you're doing and also understand and guard against the failure modes of whatever device or system you choose.

ATC type devices all the way for 34 years. Grigris are my least favorite belay device esp. due to being shorted on the rope while clipping (although they do have place on top roping and I rarely sport climb). IMO there's more nuance, feel, subtlety, and hence control availible with an ATC type device. Conversely, I'm 100% comfortable and confident being belayed with a hip belay if it's a partner who's abilities and competence I know and trust. In my own experience there's more to botch with Grigris than with tube devices and I so often see them poorly operated. OTOH, I like both belaying and being belayed on aid with a Grigris because it permits a partner to fall asleep while belaying (catching up on sleep is beneficial on a wall and increases safety). 

My ATC was stolen and I replaced it with a Reverso ... but haven't yet put it through the paces. I very rarely belay two people at the same time so that function isn't valuable to me. Redirecting an ATC off a piece of gear above isn't a problem nor is belaying off my harness. 

Problems are primarily due to operator error. Simplicity is good.