Raising YOUR game.

The above title is one fundamental principal of TRADitional rock CLIMBING. Maybe THE fundamental, although there are others too.

“Convenience” bolts and fixed ropes ARE antithetical to Trad climbing. They are sometimes defended by “safety” concerns. To those who favor these “improvements”, I ask: What is wrong with raising YOUR game?

It should be noted that “raising your game” is part of gym climbing, bouldering, sport climbing……. but those are different games.

Please skip the “danger is cool” and similar BS. Yeah it’s true for a very few people, and those people often don’t last very long.

So, what is wrong with raising YOUR trad climbing game?

i would say the problem is that MY climbing, and how i do it, isn't any of YOUR business.

slimwrote:

i would say the problem is that MY climbing, and how i do it, isn't any of YOUR business.

How is that a problem?

I really don’t care how other people climb.

What I care about is dumbing down of climbing. 

I care about the norms and traditions of trad climbing, but a lot of the new generation including many pro trad climbers simply don't. Climbing can be a lot of things. Trad climbing means something to you specifically; assuming others will hold that same meaning is a path that will lead only to madness. 

I think it's cool some trad climbers hold on the values, norms, and traditions of traditional climbing. I also think it's cool that some people don't. You're trying to neatly fit everyone's trad climbing perspectives and experiences into your box, and that is never going to happen. 

A lot of trad climbers are just going to go out and climb as they want to and not care about other's ideas and perspectives and values, and so long as they don't negatively impact other climbers I think that's actually a really beautiful thing. 

Eric Craigwrote:

How is that a problem?

I really don’t care how other people climb.

What I care about is dumbing down climbing. 

We can only lead by example, Eric.

The actions we take reflect the values we hold dear. It doesn't matter much what we say and do here unless it brings some joy to others, imo. What you want climbing to be, make your climbing like that. There is not the slightest need to consider what others do (ie their climbing style). You know as much as anyone the Sierra is limitless for individual adventure. Just take the path less traveled by...

It may come as no surprise to you, but one of the most pointless things I can imagine is getting the chop climbing taking needless "bored white people" risks.

True happiness is only found in what we do for others. Devoting our lives to the service of the common good is all we have, imo.

Spending your time narcissistically focused on yourself climbing (not saying that you do!), training body and mind to take pointless risks to measure your pene in the parking lot is a life wasted in emptiness to my way of thinking. I tried watching the "Dark Wizard" documentary. It was unwatchable to me, one long cry for intervention before the inevitable.

Putting a smile on a troubled face is worth more gold than any personal goal in climbing. If a route I put up brings stoke to others, it makes me happy. If I teach a lesson others find valuable, it makes me happy.

The ones it may not, that's something they should talk to a therapist about why they worry so much about things that have absolutely nothing to do with them. At the most we all should be "meh, not my cup of java" when we disagree. We play at a boy's and girl's game.

Climbers are Conquistadors of the Useless. The path always leads to the humble valley below from the greatest of summits, to a warm bed and shelter if we are lucky. That is where we most often do what matters.

I'm all for gear anchors and walk-offs, but when the only good options at the top are trees pushed so far back back by erosion that I need to bring a static line just to build an anchor, or the top is just a no-go zone for whatever reason, maybe a couple bolts would be better.  That, and rap stations are my two main points.  I'd rather see two bolts hidden under a boulder than look under that same rock and find a rat's nest of old soft goods.

IMO, there's not much skill difference in slinging a big tree vs clipping two bolts or threading rings on tat vs threading rings on bolts.

Everyone has their own game though.  Learning to lead in NC I gave myself a rule of "never climb an R rated route" and then one day I hopped on something because "looks interesting and I should be able to stitch that up" and sure enough it went smoothly enough with very comfortable gear spacing.  Only later did I look at the route info and think "what part of that was R?"

Hi Ricky, thank you for your response. I pretty much feel/believe the same. I am not trying to fit people into MY box, that is missing my point……BTW..... I have had the pleasure of climbing your routes out by Guadalupe Reservoir. I enjoyed them very much. I also understand the broad spectrum of people who participate in climbing. It has, during my time climbing, always been present. My very first taste of rock climbing was at upper Guadalupe Rock, in 1972. Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts. 

@HB, I am at a loss for words, so I’ll just quit while I am behind……..I have been enjoying my return to climbing immensely, with partners both young and old. Progress has been slow, like shockingly so. But it’s a new adventure, and I am happily embracing it.

Peace my brother! I support your journey and appreciate you. I do think there is worth in a personal life of excellence in the mountains...but we just have to appreciate that everyone's path is a little different. 

They say comparison is the thief of joy, but on the other hand it also gives us the gift of gratitude for what we are blessed to have, a truly miraculous and luxurious time on this Earth. Enjoy some Tuolumne sun and gather those good tidings!

Eric Craigwrote:

The above title is one fundamental principal of TRADitional rock CLIMBING. Maybe THE fundamental, although there are others too.

“Convenience” bolts and fixed ropes ARE antithetical to Trad climbing. They are sometimes defended by “safety” concerns. To those who favor these “improvements”, I ask: What is wrong with raising YOUR game?

It should be noted that “raising your game” is part of gym climbing, bouldering, sport climbing……. but those are different games.

Please skip the “danger is cool” and similar BS. Yeah it’s true for a very few people, and those people often don’t last very long.

So, what is wrong with raising YOUR trad climbing game?

Eric,

  Let’s begin by discussing impact. If I establish a climb completely naturally, with no anchors, I am also establishing a descent trail(or at least someone is).  What right do I have to double the impact of my climb on the environment?  Consider how much some of your favorite areas have changed over the years from erosion.   Is this about raising my game or is it about doing things to lessen my impact?

In 2012 a new climbing area was opened near my home, and I spent about 10 years putting up mostly trad/ mixed climbs with minimal fixed protection. My routes were some of the least climbed routes in the area, as the standard had become mostly bolt protected routes. These climbs didn’t follow crack systems, they wandered up faces connecting sometimes marginal gear placements. Over the last 5 years I have mostly retro-bolted most of these routes, and some now see daily traffic

 If I had just focused on my game and pushing my limits there would be about 50 pitches of climbing mostly ignored. How would that be an improvement?  If I didn’t place anchors at the top of these climbs, I would have had to establish at least 10 new trails getting back down. Even in just a decade I have seen erosion lower the base of a cliff by over a foot.  Is this really just about my game?  It seems like it’s a bigger issue than your post implies.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I care about the norms and traditions of trad climbing, but a lot of the new generation including many pro trad climbers simply don't. ………..

I think it's cool some trad climbers hold on the values, norms, and traditions of traditional climbing.

double double thanks to you Ricky!!! I get it. For two fucking years I have been making an erroneous assumption! I will never again use the term TRADitional! That isn’t what  trad climbing is.

Really, I genuinely thank you. I couldn’t be more genuine. I also have been very stupid. I shoulda been able to figure it out. I was just so blinded by my dead wrong assumption. So buried in my box.

I hope you understand this, this disconnect. I hope it helps you understand the what and why of my thinking and my posts. 

Kevin, you don’t get it. But guess what, if you read my above post, you might understand that I don’t either, and why.
One thing I do understand is conservation, and that is an area where there have been significant improvements. Overall. Conservation is not a straightforward subject. Turns out, trad climbing isn’t either. Understandably, the two subjects struggle to co-exist. 

I appreciate ya, Eric, I find your sincerity and open mindedness extremely refreshing.

P.s. I have much better routes a couple hours east, I hope you can enjoy them one day. =)

Eric Craigwrote:

The above title is one fundamental principal of TRADitional rock CLIMBING. Maybe THE fundamental, although there are others too.

“Convenience” bolts and fixed ropes ARE antithetical to Trad climbing. They are sometimes defended by “safety” concerns. To those who favor these “improvements”, I ask: What is wrong with raising YOUR game?

It should be noted that “raising your game” is part of gym climbing, bouldering, sport climbing……. but those are different games.

Please skip the “danger is cool” and similar BS. Yeah it’s true for a very few people, and those people often don’t last very long.

So, what is wrong with raising YOUR trad climbing game?

It certainly is difficult to define Traditional Climbing.  But while people have a wide variety of definitions, the ideas of no fixed protection or ropes are fairly widely held.  I think the lack of fixed ropes signals towards other standards such as not rehearsing moves, climbing ground up onsite and not pulling on gear.

I’m not saying that’s your exact definition or my own, but those are some extreme rules one could use to play the “traditional” climbing game.

So why don’t we pursue those?  Well, many people aren’t interested or have become captivated by other goals.  

But I guess I have some inclination in the “purist” directions that I mentioned above.  And for me, raising myself to that level has meant utilizing all the tools the philosophy eschews.  I aid, climb on bolts, TR solo, rehearse moves, and occasionally fix gear.  All those have helped me grow into climbing hard (for me anyway), free, and onsite in a totally natural environment.  I doubt I would have climbed half the trad routes I have if I hadn’t embraced modern tactics.

And I think there are other things a Traditional climber can rise to as well.  Onsiting isn’t just about strength, it’s about reading routes and being patient under adversity.  Rope and gear work is about efficiency, about utilizing a large and diverse tool set.  Developing skills include knowing when fixed gear diminishes the route or improves it.  All this is trainable and I consider it part of the self improvement that makes me a better traditional climber.

What is wrong with raising my trad climbing game?  I’m weak and slow and not always the sharpest, and the sky is the limit.  But I think I and many others aspire to what you’re referencing.

Eric Craigwrote:

Kevin, you don’t get it. But guess what, if you read my above post, you might understand that I don’t either, and why.
One thing I do understand is conservation, and that is an area where there have been significant improvements. Overall. Conservation is not a straightforward subject. Turns out, trad climbing isn’t either. Understandably, the two subjects struggle to co-exist. 

Eric,

  I think I do get it.  I too value leave no trace ethics, and am constantly pushing myself to improve as a human being.  I have put up several dozen ground up trad climbs without leaving a single trace of my passage.  I do not even bother claiming many of them as FA's, they were just an adventure that I kept for the next party to have.  Unfortunately it's not just about us having adventures any more, at least it's not if we look at the big picture.  Take Yosemite climber trails for example, which are some of the worst examples of braiding/shortcutting/ and extreme erosion I have seen.  Shouldn't at least part of us "Raising Our Game" being putting in the time to maintain access?  Why is it that an area known for traditional anchors and walk-offs has such a bad example of sustainable climbing?  How do we as climbers address our increased impact on our environment in a "traditional" way?  

Caleb and Kevin, thank you for your responses.

Kevin, you are right, allowances have to be made regarding impact from high usage. I will admit to my lack of involvement on that issue, since about 1977. My experience participating in the Yosemite Masterplan of that time soured me on the subject. Great strides have been made since then. Maybe it’s about time I reconsider that situation. I already can think of one simple trail improvement in The Valley that would have a positive effect…..I was surprised to see a nicely built trail leading right up to Central Pillar of Frenzy a couple weeks ago. I was also surprised to see no one on the route, and could only see one party that day on the East Buttress. A Blue Bird day too.

i often wonder how many trees have dies because misguided ethics determined drilling a couple bolts was worse. hell, in eldo alone i would love to know how many trees have been strangled to death.

and kevin, btw, thanks for retro-bolting those. i look forward to doing them, and i am sure a lot of other folks are enjoying them as well.

slimwrote:

i often wonder how many trees have dies because misguided ethics determined drilling a couple bolts was worse. hell, in eldo alone i would love to know how many trees have been strangled to death.

and kevin, btw, thanks for retro-bolting those. i look forward to doing them, and i am sure a lot of other folks are enjoying them as well.

Who is advocating for trees being killed?
Did I miss something?

I think most all parts of the climbing “community” have gotten past abusing trees for  normal rappel anchors, like decades ago. You know, like when most all climbers were “boomers”.
In really ancient pre history times, people often didn’t bother leaving a sling, just ran the rope around the tree. Then pulled it down when they were through.

All climbing routes are different. And there millions of routes to be climbed. Pick the ones you like. 

slimwrote:

i would say the problem is that MY climbing, and how i do it, isn't any of YOUR business.

But you want to make how you do it everyone else's business by retro bolting and crying about "accessibility"? There is a lifetime of unclimbed rock out there, why not go do something actually positive for your community and put up routes more to your taste.

Sam Mwrote:

But you want to make how you do it everyone else's business by retro bolting and crying about "accessibility"? There is a lifetime of unclimbed rock out there, why not go do something actually positive for your community and put up routes more to your taste.

not sure if you are mistaking me for somebody else, but i haven't ever retro-bolted a route.