GriGris, what's with the disparity between how Petzl intends for the device to be used and how people use it?

Balewrote:

This is awesome, thanks!!

T Cwrote:

Please explain how one would belay via figure 8.  Genuinely curious.   

Figure 8 is the name of the oldschool metal belay device in bale's post. It is also the name of a knot. You can belay with the former, but not the latter.  

Imo defeating the cam temporarily with just gentle pressure of the thumb is nbd to pay out slack. However I think it's best to make a point of only doing it the minimum amount of time possible. I usually dont find it necessary to do this as the leader is climbing, usually just a clip unless the rope is one the big side or fuzzy.

I have an older 9.8 rope that has gotten quite fuzzy with age and locks up the GriGri probably 50% of the time if I try to do the flossing/Petzl 7B photo style feed. I had to cut it down, so it doesn't see a lot of use anymore, but I spent enough time with it that I default to the Petzl quick feed method since it works with all of my ropes, being diligent about only depressing the cam while feeding. As an added benefit, I find that keeping the fingers under the little curl lip helps to keep the GriGri carabiner from becoming cross-loaded since there is always a tiny bit of tension on the carabiner holding it up. 

I have had a gym employee fail me on a lead belay test because I didn't use the flossing method. It was at Vertical Worlds Seattle, relatively shortly after their auto-belay lawsuit, so it may have been a result of them aggressively enforcing manuals in response to the lawsuit. 

Jordan Rogerswrote:

I have an older 9.8 rope that has gotten quite fuzzy with age and locks up the GriGri probably 50% of the time if I try to do the flossing/Petzl 7B photo style feed. I had to cut it down, so it doesn't see a lot of use anymore, but I spent enough time with it that I default to the Petzl quick feed method since it works with all of my ropes, being diligent about only depressing the cam while feeding. As an added benefit, I find that keeping the fingers under the little curl lip helps to keep the GriGri carabiner from becoming cross-loaded since there is always a tiny bit of tension on the carabiner holding it up. 

I have had a gym employee fail me on a lead belay test because I didn't use the flossing method. It was at Vertical Worlds Seattle, relatively shortly after their auto-belay lawsuit, so it may have been a result of them aggressively enforcing manuals in response to the lawsuit. 

And this is exactly why Petzl recommends learning and using both techniques. Huge differences in rope diameters really make a massive difference.

My personal rule of thumb is to use the tuber/floss technique until I can't because the rope won't feed through quickly enough. Thats when the thumb/lip  technique comes out.

Then they had to go invent the Neox which really doesn't require overriding anything it feeds so smoothly. I haven't read the Neox instructions since I don't own one but I can't imagine that Petzl recommends the thumb override technique with it.

IIRC, the grigri belay methods in the petzl literature have changed a few times over the years. maybe that is part of the problem?

i agree though - watching someone belaying with a grigri, constantly holding the lever down, chatting with a buddy and generally not paying attention doesn't really instill a feeling of confidence.

I keep my hand in the index on lip, thumb on cam position 100% of the time my hand is on the device.  I would MUCH prefer that my belayer pays out rope *fast*, and I minimize the time I go from less slack, to clipping slack, than have them faff with trying to feed rope out slowly.

As mentioned, you can't* defeat the cam in a lead fall with your hand in the correct position, go try.

almostradwrote:

I keep my hand in the index on lip, thumb on cam position 100% of the time my hand is on the device.  I would MUCH prefer that my belayer pays out rope *fast*, and I minimize the time I go from less slack, to clipping slack, than have them faff with trying to feed rope out slowly.

As mentioned, you can't* defeat the cam in a lead fall with your hand in the correct position, go try.

A statement said over and over and over doesn't make the statement a fact. Not following manufacturers directions is fine to do, it's a free country still, you can choose a red point over safety.

Jordan Rogerswrote:

I have an older 9.8 rope that has gotten quite fuzzy with age and locks up the GriGri probably 50% of the time if I try to do the flossing/Petzl 7B photo style feed. I had to cut it down, so it doesn't see a lot of use anymore, but I spent enough time with it that I default to the Petzl quick feed method since it works with all of my ropes, being diligent about only depressing the cam while feeding. As an added benefit, I find that keeping the fingers under the little curl lip helps to keep the GriGri carabiner from becoming cross-loaded since there is always a tiny bit of tension on the carabiner holding it up. 

I have had a gym employee fail me on a lead belay test because I didn't use the flossing method. It was at Vertical Worlds Seattle, relatively shortly after their auto-belay lawsuit, so it may have been a result of them aggressively enforcing manuals in response to the lawsuit. 

I've never failed someone on a lead belay test just for this, but I will mention it if I see that they've belayed basically the whole climb this way. To me, it's indicative of someone who's not totally comfortable with their belay device. In addition to the ATC/"flossing" method, which is a very functional option most of the time, it becomes even easier if you:

1. Pay attention and anticipate your climber's actions. As they reach down to grab rope, start feeding.

2. Use the amount of slack you have out (when appropriate) and your position relative to the first clip to help feed. Especially once your climber has ascended several clips, a bit step into the wall as your climber is pulling slack and clipping can often negate the need to feed more than a few inches of rope through the device, which is much easier than feeding a lot more.

Just buy a Trango vergo. They're made to be held and way better than a GriGri in every way. Big Petzl has melted everyone's brains with their subpar device propaganda 

Hayden Bwrote:

Just buy a Trango vergo. They're made to be held and way better than a GriGri in every way. Big Petzl has melted everyone's brains with their subpar device propaganda 

This thread is specifically discussing nuances of Grigri use

Nearly 2 months after the last post you contribute to the thread by saying just buy a Vergo

Nice

I stand by my statement. The fact that this thread exists is an example of why it's an inferior product. 

Yet Petzl invented the tool that everyone has copied and has the best feeding device out there, the Neox. I can't say how the Neox is with small diameter ropes, 9mm and below, but it feeds a fuzzy old 10.2 like a dream. They should have named it the Gri Three.

I thought the GriGri was super annoying to belay with at first, but it now feels just as smooth as any other belay device to me using nearly the same technique as one would use with an ATC. The trick for smoothly shoveling out slack without depressing the cam is contained in these two sentences from the manual:
"To facilitate feeding the rope, focus more on pushing the rope into the device than pulling it out (rotational movement). Anticipate clips by being attentive to the climber’s progress."

Lead the movement with your brake hand so that you are feeding slack in at least as fast as you are pulling it out with the other hand. When you need to switch to the fast-feed position (mostly for clips), just focus on getting your thumb on the cam and don't worry about trying to get your fingers under the lip of the device. When your thumb goes to depress the cam, the GriGri will orient itself properly and you can quickly yard out however much slack you need. This happens naturally as your brake hand reaches the device at the end of the first armful, or you can do it preemptively if you need slack as quickly as possible.

As aikibujin pointed out, the main problem is that most people don't think about the mechanics much and only try the "correct" method a couple of times before messing it up, declaring it impossible, and developing lazier belay habits (always using the fast-feed position or keeping extra slack out). Get a patient partner and spend a session or two working on it with no fear of shorting and you'll figure it out.

Calling the GriGri a bad belay device when you haven't figured out the right technique is like proposing a higher grade for a climb when you haven't figured out the right beta.

I written about this observation in another thread but someone reading this may find the story useful:

When I started climbing, I belayed with a sticht plate and a figure 8 device and then a tuber and then when it was introduced, I started belaying with a grigri. Given my history, I never belayed while touching the device and never had any issues with feeding speed. No “catchiness”

Then I got a new harness with this newfangled thing, the belay loop , and started immediately having problems belaying with the grigri. The belay loop changed the position and the tension on the carabiner and thus the position of the grigri. I switched to feeding my parabiner down through my waist tiein point and then up thru the belay loop. This positional change completely eliminated the catchiness and I was able to go back to fast and easy feeding of the grigri used like a tuber with no hand ever touching it. 

M Mwrote:

A statement said over and over and over doesn't make the statement a fact. Not following manufacturers directions is fine to do, it's a free country still, you can choose a red point over safety.

you're right, 

it's physics that make it a fact   

It's not about sending, I feel safer when I minimize the time I spend clipping, and I feel good about that logic.

Erich Samplewrote:

I am referring to people using the lip as petzl describes. I guess my concern comes where petzl seems to place quite an emphasis on only doing this when necessary, where as it seems the standard belay technique described seems to be completely unused. I guess I've always just found this a bit strange. 

People are strange,  it's  a monkey see monkey do kinda world.

If you think its totally unnecessary to ever depress the cam you probably haven't been using it very long. Thicker ropes, fuzzy ropes, or a climber in their own world that tries to quickly pull slack can lock it up. The best remedy is a quick press. 

Just follow the manual. Don't grab the whole thing. They dont want you to do that because if you're whole hand is wrapped around it and your panic reaction is to freeze, it'll never lock up. 

Fwiw I dont press the cam down during climbing, only really ever throwing slack.