New X-Dream - rumor and innuendo

mike dwrote:

The plastic bit of the pinky pommel cracked on both my original handles. The first one camp replaced with an alpine handle. The other one cracked later and I haven't reached out to camp about it yet but I assume they'd replace it with a 2nd gen handle. I recall they told me then the new handle would be more durable. I've also read they ice up pretty easily which could be a non starter given the amount of wet ice they see. Thoughts or observations on either of those issues?

Our ice has been really wet but the air has been cold this week. Lots of icing on everyone's tools has been happening, especially near the particular waterfall (that is actively running) that I've been climbing next to. The new handles don't seem to have any more issue with icing than any other tools from what I have observed. 

If you liked the older XDreams, the newer ones are a slight improvement with no negatives that I have found yet. If your old XDreams are in good shape, there is no reason to upgrade. I am glad that Camp made the new tools backward compatible.

The handle is a touch slimmer but also 5mm taller so it accommodates larger hands even better, but may not fit smaller hands well. I actually like the removable spike - it has been years since I used a technical tool with a spike and forgot how nice it is to use a tool in normal piolet canne position (as opposed to upside down) when walking on low angle ice.  

The bolts are supposed to be stronger but they have a much tighter fit so I found it harder to swap picks (I seem to swap picks way too often). The bolt is only threaded for the last few millimeters that goes in the nut now so they have effectively thicker metal though most of the bolt hole/pick hole. The old bolts work fine with the new tools.

The Omni picks are the same as the old Mixte - which is not a compliment, the stock picks are the one XDream downside IMO.  The Hard Mixte picks are interesting but I plan on filing the top bevel at least one inch farther back to remove the mini mohawks in this area which make these picks harder to clean. This pick will probably never be that great in pure ice but could be an excellent alpine/dry pick - time will tell. 

Regarding the robustness question asked a few posts higher up - I have over eight years on my second pair of Xdreams and although they look like they are beat to shit, there is no wobble or any looseness of any kind, they are solid. Same for a 10 year old pair Bladerunners. I replaced both tools and pons this year just to be cautious but Xdreams and Bladerunners are very durable.

Oh I have no concerns about the durability of the tools in general. I've got 8 years on mine and something like 500 days on ice. Issues I've experienced are limited to stock picks from a bad batch (both snapped within the first season or two) and the molded plastic of the pinky pommel breaking in the same place on both stock handles after 5ish years. As mentioned camp replaced the one I notified them about. I'm just trying to figure out if I want to replace the other one with another 1st gen handle or replace both with 2nd gen handles. Hand fit hasn't been a problem but I don't think slightly taller grips will hurt. Should have touched some at fest this year but didn't make it to their tent.

Just reviewed today: climbing.com/gear/the-new-c…

James Cwrote:

Just reviewed today: climbing.com/gear/the-new-c…

I agree the handle is improved. I plan on buying the handles to replace my current ones bc they do feel better (slightly larger and slightly slimmer). 

James Cwrote:

Just reviewed today: climbing.com/gear/the-new-c…

Not sure what the author is talking about the x dream being more aggressive than the hydra. Looks like the angles are pretty similar, if anything the hydra has a more aggressive angle over all

Jack Wallacewrote:

Not sure what the author is talking about the x dream being more aggressive than the hydra. Looks like the angles are pretty similar, if anything the hydra has a more aggressive angle over all

The angle of recline is noticeably greater on both the upper and lower grip of the X-Dream.  

I don’t own X-Dreams, but I think Camp really did a good job of optimizing the angle of recline when designing the X-Dreams (in “ice mode”, not “dry mode”).  I prefer it to the angle of recline on Nomics / Hydras.  It feels good in both normal and reverse grips.  Climbers adept at rotating tools around their index finger should have no issues climbing less than vertical terrain with the X-Dream handles.

Angle looks pretty similar to me

Jack Wallacewrote:

Angle looks pretty similar to me

It’s common for people on these forums make up random “facts” about tools that are easily disproven.

Have new x dreams. Love them. However I still have the bolt come loose. I have to tighten it once every other outing and I check it (shake it) before each pitch to verify. Climb w the hex key in my pocket. I haven't used loctite yet, as I don't think I need dry mode. But it's pretty annoying they didn't actually fix this issue. The next bolt has some sort of internal nut that I assume is a lock nut if sorts. Anyways, not fixed. Great to climb on when it doesn't fall apart.

I’ve had and have multiple sets of X dreams both generations and have never had a bolt come loose on me.
As for lock-tite if you get the blue (I believe) it’s the non permanent version that can be taken apart.  

Jake woowrote:

Have new x dreams. Love them. However I still have the bolt come loose. I have to tighten it once every other outing and I check it (shake it) before each pitch to verify. Climb w the hex key in my pocket. I haven't used loctite yet, as I don't think I need dry mode. But it's pretty annoying they didn't actually fix this issue. The next bolt has some sort of internal nut that I assume is a lock nut if sorts. Anyways, not fixed. Great to climb on when it doesn't fall apart.

I usually put Loctite on the bolts on my tools, and that has worked really well for me. Since I started doing that, I haven’t had a bolt come loose.

Where it does become a bit of a problem is with the head weights, since the stock bolt is relatively soft metal and can strip pretty easily. Because of that, I typically replace it with a harder steel bolt, which seems to solve the issue.

To add to the thread, I’ve been climbing on X-Dreams for about 10 years, and I’ve been quite happy with the new version so far.

Jack Wallacewrote:

Angle looks pretty similar to me

Not sure what the author is talking about the x dream being more aggressive than the hydra. Looks like the angles are pretty similar, if anything the hydra has a more aggressive angle over all

The X-Dreams in 'ice mode' are not more aggressive than the Hydras. They have a more reclined handle but a shallower pick angle.

The images you posted are not layover properly. Rotate the Hydra on the picky rest so the pick tip to pinky line are the same.

You'll see the Hydra pick angle gets steeper and the handle less steep. 

 

rocknice2wrote:

The X-Dreams in 'ice mode' are not more aggressive than the Hydras. They have a more reclined handle but a shallower pick angle.

The images you posted are not layover properly. Rotate the Hydra on the picky rest so the pick tip to pinky line are the same.

You'll see the Hydra pick angle gets steeper and the handle less steep. 

 

Seems like the x dream handle angle is ever so slightly more aggressive with a significantly more relaxed pick angle. (Image Scale is a bit off but the angles are original)

Thanks for the comparison but the scaling does affect the results. If you scale the Hydra down the tip will need come to rotate forward changing the angles.

But yeah the difference is very slight. In the first photo just imagine how much you'd need to rotate the Hydra to bring both tip2pommel lines inline with eachother.

If you actually want to compare the angle of recline of the handle, the best way to do it is to put the tip of picks on the same edge and pull down on the handle.  The tips of the picks should be in the exact same position, when making a comparison.  If you want, you can line up the butt of the pommels against a flat vertical surface, instead of a straight pull down. 

Source: UKC 

Camp published the angle of recline for the handle on both Ice and Dry modes on the old version of the X-Dream, and I would assume that hasn't changed significantly with the new version.  

Source: CAMP

There is a clear difference in the angle of recline between the X-dreams and Nomics / Hydras that you can both see and feel.  The differences between the Hydra and Nomic are practically imperceptible.

Source: Reddit

Angles :   pick -- handle

Nomic :  104* --- 46*

Hydra :   101* -- 45*

X-Ice  :   100* -- 48*

X-dry :    105* -- 60*

Seeing as I have both tools figured I’d drop some actual photos of both tools so we can stop trying to glean comparisons from internet photos.

Here is Karl’s suggested method of comparison

picks and pink rests against a flat surface

Comparison from second position 

As others have pointed out the hydra gets most of its angle from the head and shaft, whereas the x dream gets most of its angle from its kicked back handle. 

In practice this leads to the Xdreams shaft and head angle being closer to that of a straighter “alpine” style tool, which would explain why is tends to have an easy swing much like a quark or cobra as opposed to the flick of a nomic or hydra. But by having such a difference in angle and horizontal offset between first and second positions the xdream suffers from probably the worst pick shift when switching positions of any of the mainstream steep ice tools on the market. And it also suffers on mixed in my quite extensive experience, it’s fine of the thuggy and juggy stuff but the relaxed shaft and head angles combined with the pick shift are very noticeable on smaller and flatter edges

The hydra, and let’s be honest nomic, type geometry definitely doesn’t have that breezy x dream swing, I’ll definitely admit that the x dream is one of the easiest swinging tools out there. But when hooking on technical ice and thin mixed I find the hydra/nomic geometry is significantly more stable and confidence inspiring.

In the real world I think these are both very fine tools and I’d be happy to climb steep ice at my limit with either of them, most days I prefer the hydra but my x dreams still see steep ice duty quite a bit