A Warning to Women Regarding A Prominent Valley Climber

Your profile comes up just fine for me. I’ve seen that message a lot lately. Doubt it’s personal to you.

Tim K wrote:

I think this a futile exercise aside from large numbers of climbers gravitating to the valley. Also Yosemite may be common to these sick fucks but even they weren't exclusive to Yosemite. Anywhere there's a man in a position of power there's a percentage of them committing sexual assault.

Hi Tim, I think that you correctly identified why it seems that Yosemite has more bad actors and predators when you wrote, “large numbers of climbers gravitating to the valley”. It’s been my experience, that anytime there is more of anything, including climbers, there can be more examples of all human behaviors. Another way to think about this would be to compare the amount of assaults that occur among the ski communities of Lake Tahoe or Mammoth as opposed to someplace like Meadowlark Ski Lodge in Wyoming. 

And it also seems that humans tend to forget the examples of regular and exemplary behavior, but remember and analyze the bad behavior. 

I'm jumping back in to just point out that the Mods, despite taking so much flack, have actually done an admirable job in adhering to their own standards. Kurt's exceptional post speaks for itself. It remains up because at no point did he accuse the man in question of a crime. But his words are damning enough.

Thank you Amarius for saving the original. The difference between the two is stark. And Nathan's post furthers my point why making criminal allegations based on secondhand conjecture should not be allowed.

The character of the man in question is clear. The community has been warned (again) and each individual can make their own judgement as to what sanction is warranted. I meanwhile want to thank the Mods for sticking to their guns; your policy is the right one and in place for a reason.

Daniel Shivelywrote:
I think that you correctly identified why it seems that Yosemite has more bad actors and predators when you wrote, “large numbers of climbers gravitating to the valley”. It’s been my experience, that anytime there is more of anything, including climbers, there can be more examples of all human behaviors. Another way to think about this would be to compare the amount of assaults that occur among the ski communities of Lake Tahoe or Mammoth as opposed to someplace like Meadowlark Ski Lodge in Wyoming.

And it also seems that humans tend to forget the examples of regular and exemplary behavior, but remember and analyze the bad behavior. 

I can assure you that women are well aware that more people = higher chance of encountering an abusive person, and that it serves our survival to be especially attuned to bad behavior. Most people are fine. The ones who are not fine can really fuck a person up. 

Tim K wrote:

Yeah, I think there's a tendency to want to displace blame for shitty men and people in general. I.e. one must be crazy to achieve a physical performance level of a Charlie Barrett, Lonnie Kauk or an Oscar Pistorious. I think this is a natural desire but to me it ignores what I believe to be the underlying problem: unchecked shitty behavior that's been enabled for years before a crime is committed.

  People who achieve high status for whatever reason have more opportunity to abuse that status and more protection from consequences.

ETA - There's a special place in hell for predators who cultivate trusting relationships and then use that to abuse people. 

Mike Larsonwrote:

I'm jumping back in to just point out that the Mods, despite taking so much flack, have actually done an admirable job in adhering to their own standards. Kurt's exceptional post speaks for itself. It remains up because at no point did he accuse the man in question of a crime. But his words are damning enough.

Thank you Amarius for saving the original. The difference between the two is stark. And Nathan's post furthers my point why making criminal allegations based on secondhand conjecture should not be allowed.

The character of the man in question is clear. The community has been warned (again) and each individual can make their own judgement as to what sanction is warranted. I meanwhile want to thank the Mods for sticking to their guns; your policy is the right one and in place for a reason.

TL;DR - Censor me, Daddy.

I typically don't get involved in this drama, but some of the posts in here range from ignorant to just straight up abhorrent. Kurt at no point accused the man in question of a crime? Yes. Yes, he did. The filth in question grabbing his wife's butt is a crime. I feel sorry for any woman in your life if you don't understand that being touched without consent is in fact assault. The problem is not how the posts are worded or what they accuse the man of, it's that some of you don't understand that violating consent is actually a legal issue.

As a woman and a mother, I appreciate the men who have stepped up to publicly speak for victims or say something about a situation that just felt wrong.  We need more of that.

Ok, I know I will catch flak for this.

While we have more than one example of nonconsensual groping related by firsthand witnesses/victims which alone rises to "despicable" behavior....and assault.

And we have the disgustingly adolescent bragging about getting to second base with the rest of the "locker room" bros....misogyny.

BUT we have no evidence presented that anything non-consensual occurred at the bandito camp especially given that criminal sexual assault is alleged if I read the quoted OP correctly?

So, get out your pitchforks and torches for the firsthand accounts of disgusting behavior/assault. I am agreed.

However, **in this one instance** the OP is alleging crimes without any apparent knowledge of the thoughts of the alleged victim or knowledge of consent or not?

And I have a problem with that.

If I am missing something I apologize for not going through all of the thread more carefully and I certainly owe the alleged victim an apology if so. I will take the heat and own up if it comes out to be criminal activity.

I am not defending an apparent serial assaulter/non-consensual groper and misogynist.

We just need more information to allege crimes in the one case of the OP, as near as I am able to determine (playing armchair prosecutor here).

And as above, I have no problem about speaking up about a situation that felt wrong...BUT alleging crimes in the case of the OP is next level.

Flame on.

Gina Schaeferwrote:

Gina, I understand how this topic can cause strong emotions, but I suggest you read my other posts on this thread. My objection has always been an incredibly narrow one: one should not directly accuse someone of a crime based on secondhand conjecture.

You are 100% right that Kurt's post *describes* a crime that took place, but that is different than directly accusing someone. It's a very lawyerly point, but one the Mods apparently adhere to, since otherwise Kurt's post too would have been censored. Kurt's post also carries far more weight because he posted under his own name and has extensive experience with the man in question. As I've said repeatedly, I am fully in favor of terrible behavior like this being called out for the good of the community.

The gravitation of psychologically imbalanced people to remote areas is by no means unique to climbers- this human behavior phenomenon exists in rural places all around the world. The Valley (as 'urban' as it might seem to many of us) is still a relatively rural place, and has many of the basic life amenities to support someone who wishes to withdraw from the larger world. It also has a large concentration of people, which is attractive to those whose psychologic structure depends on interacting with/manipulating/harming other people.

I said it before—A community is not a courtroom.

People are getting wrapped around the axle on the semantics here. Hamster just said it—he’s playing “armchair prosecutor”. Stop, don’t do that. No one appointed you prosecutor of anything. This is a reasonably healthy conversation.

Valley Climber is taking heat for his anonymity, for his word choice, for his “cowardice” in not speaking up sooner, for being libelous. Okay. But also, look at what he started.

All y’all armchair prosecutors, if you had your druthers, none of this would be happening. Silence would be the way. 

apogeewrote:

The gravitation of psychologically imbalanced people to remote areas is by no means unique to climbers- this human behavior phenomenon exists in rural places all around the world. The Valley (as 'urban' as it might seem to many of us) is still a relatively rural place, and has many of the basic life amenities to support someone who wishes to withdraw from the larger world. It also has a large concentration of people, which is attractive to those whose psychologic structure depends on interacting with/manipulating/harming other people.

It is also the natural location for a narcissist skilled climber with all its fake reinforcement of status aka Big Fish in a Little Bowl Phenomena.

Slim Pickenswrote:

I said it before—A community is not a courtroom.

People are getting wrapped around the axle on the semantics here. Hamster just said it—he’s playing “armchair prosecutor”. Stop, don’t do that. No one appointed you prosecutor of anything. This is a reasonably healthy conversation.

Valley Climber is taking heat for his anonymity, for his word choice, for his “cowardice” in not speaking up sooner, for being libelous. Okay. But also, look at what he started.

All y’all armchair prosecutor motherfuckers, if you had your druthers, none of this would be happening. Silence would be the way. 

That is one take on my post and I hear you. 

All I am asking is for the truth to come out and for anyone responsible to be held accountable. The alleged victim herself is not served by non-present opinions, imo.

We also have enough other firsthand accounts to condemn PTPP for assault.

I won't defend my post any further but will listen.

John Tuttlewrote:

Ok, I know I will catch flak for this.

While we have more than one example of nonconsensual groping related by firsthand witnesses/victims which alone rises to "despicable" behavior....and assault.

And we have the disgustingly adolescent bragging about getting to second base with the rest of the "locker room" bros....misogyny.

BUT we have no evidence presented that anything non-consensual occurred at the bandito camp especially given that criminal sexual assault is alleged if I read the quoted OP correctly?

So, get out your pitchforks and torches for the firsthand accounts of disgusting behavior/assault. I am agreed.

However, **in this one instance** the OP is alleging crimes without any apparent knowledge of the thoughts of the alleged victim or knowledge of consent or not?

And I have a problem with that.

If I am missing something I apologize for not going through all of the thread more carefully and I certainly owe the alleged victim an apology if so. I will take the heat and own up if it comes out to be criminal activity.

I am not defending an apparent serial assaulter/non-consensual groper and misogynist.

We just need more information to allege crimes in the one case of the OP, as near as I am able to determine (playing armchair prosecutor here).

And as above, I have no problem about speaking up about a situation that felt wrong...BUT alleging crimes in the case of the OP is next level.

Flame on.

This point has been shoved in my face for 8 pages, why do you all feel the need to keep hammering it home? In light of what is coming out now, have you ever considered the emotional impact it might have on those who are trying, even imperfectly, to speak up for themselves and other victims? OP speaking out gave some women here the bravery to advocate for themselves and I thank him and the others so much. They are adding value and doing their part to protect us women in the community. All of you are doing the exact opposite.

I keep seeing the cop out caveat “BUT I don’t know this man, I don’t know the situation, I don’t even go to the valley.” You admitted to not even reading the whole thread carefully. At this point, you have very little to nothing to contribute to the conversation and all you are doing is talking over people who do.

If you can’t understand why 90% of this thread is men debating each other and if you don’t think that’s a problem, really reflect before typing yet another self-serving post.

EDIT: Some of you really pissed me off and I forgot the important part of this post, which is to cut through the drivel- 

PAGE 5 contains a post from the journalist Sam MacIlwaine requesting that any victims or those with information that are willing to come forward can reach her.

PAGE 6 contains the post from Kurt Arend with a first hand account of the predatory nature of the person involved

PAGE 8 is the repost of the OP (you’re a G for saving that, dude)

John Tuttlewrote:

Ok, I know I will catch flak for this.

While we have more than one example of nonconsensual groping related by firsthand witnesses/victims which alone rises to "despicable" behavior....and assault.

And we have the disgustingly adolescent bragging about getting to second base with the rest of the "locker room" bros....misogyny.

BUT we have no evidence presented that anything non-consensual occurred at the bandito camp especially given that criminal sexual assault is alleged if I read the quoted OP correctly?

So, get out your pitchforks and torches for the firsthand accounts of disgusting behavior/assault. I am agreed.

However, **in this one instance** the OP is alleging crimes without any apparent knowledge of the thoughts of the alleged victim or knowledge of consent or not?

And I have a problem with that.

If I am missing something I apologize for not going through all of the thread more carefully and I certainly owe the alleged victim an apology if so. I will take the heat and own up if it comes out to be criminal activity.

I am not defending an apparent serial assaulter/non-consensual groper and misogynist.

We just need more information to allege crimes in the one case of the OP, as near as I am able to determine (playing armchair prosecutor here).

And as above, I have no problem about speaking up about a situation that felt wrong...BUT alleging crimes in the case of the OP is next level.

Flame on.

The issue is that there have been reports of PTPP doing this type of stuff since at least 2005.

It’s well known in the Valley.  

PTPP’s behavior is well known in the online climbing community.

Just look at all the social media he’s been banned from. The guy was just permanently banned from Facebook for this stuff. 

Slim Pickenswrote:

I said it before—A community is not a courtroom.

People are getting wrapped around the axle on the semantics here. Hamster just said it—he’s playing “armchair prosecutor”. Stop, don’t do that. No one appointed you prosecutor of anything. This is a reasonably healthy conversation.

Valley Climber is taking heat for his anonymity, for his word choice, for his “cowardice” in not speaking up sooner, for being libelous. Okay. But also, look at what he started.

All y’all armchair prosecutors, if you had your druthers, none of this would be happening. Silence would be the way. 

The internet is not a community - and google assures that these words aren't limited to whatever community you speak of.

Valley Climber is an alias "taking heat", in contrast to a named individual (however now veiled or unveiled).

It seems a reasonable to believe that this particular mechanism of discussion is not the only or even best option, and when used might benefit from some guardrails, while holding that silence isn't an ideal option either.

This thread has been helpful for understanding MP's limits. If I may summarize:

Do share information that will help protect other climbers.
Stick to accurately describing what you know.
Don't make an assertion of a crime committed without a conviction in a court of law.
Use words like "alleged" or "accused of" where appropriate.

This is what journalists do, and it's not that hard once you know the rules.

MP admins or insiders should feel free to correct me if I have anything wrong. Otherwise, can we move on now?  

Wow, I thought PTPP was just an alcoholic with an aid problem. I was on ST in the later years, and I remember he had a "Friday night drunk posting" thread and a bunch of big wall posts with a woman who appeared to be his long-term parter. Honestly, they looked like a cute couple. Well, now it seems like he has a reputation of inappropriate behavior that precedes him, and hopefully this thread will further serve to warn and dissuade potential victims. 

I'm now 54, in my life I've seen woman accuse guys at least a dozen times, either publicly or in private.

One damn time it was not legit, every single other time the guy has eventually done it again, gotten arrested or been publicly shamed for being a turd.

I can see why women are reluctant to speak the truth, they are usually questioned, demeaned or brow beat until they stop talking about it...it's sick and screwed up.

At this point I always believe women when they come forward....there are a lot of screwed up, aggressive dudes out there that need the rest of us guys to go hands on. The system typically fails.

Tim K wrote:

Yeah, I think there's a tendency to want to displace blame for shitty men and people in general. I.e. one must be crazy to achieve a physical performance level of a Charlie Barrett, Lonnie Kauk or an Oscar Pistorious. I think this is a natural desire but to me it ignores what I believe to be the underlying problem: unchecked shitty behavior that's been enabled for years before a crime is committed.

Tim, don’t misconstrue my post as in any way excusing predatory behavior. It was aimed at offering a possible reason for why Yosemite has been perceived as a location with a long history of negativity. 

What you’re describing in your reply is what I label “the go along to get along” problem. I’ve noticed that this behavior is common amongst climbers and skiers who pursue fame and monetary gain from these activities. The “industry” thrives on publicity and image and individuals who “spill the beans” are often pushed out. The same comparison can be applied to most institutions. 

A perfect example is how my thread calling for a comment from Climbing and Gripped has been largely ignored. Both of these publications  have featured every predator discussed in this thread in a supportive or positive manner. What happens when these publications behave in this manner,  is that people who simply read the stories, but know little else about the subject, form false and misguided opinions. This in turn contributes to the people who only have knowledge of the individuals,  from what they read in positive and promotional articles, having doubts when their “heroes” are accused of bad behavior. The actions of these publications is exactly the enabling of the “unchecked shitty behavior” that you perfectly described. A good start to improving culture, would be for the institutions and compilers of history to be transparent and forthright with all of the story. If more contributors here would make these demands, maybe the institutions would take notice. Also, if individuals who act as enablers, would lose sponsorship and prestige, the culture would move in a positive direction. 

amariuswrote:

The original post was by "Valley Climber". Another post by VC in the same thread was also removed.
I preserved the original posts, hope VC forgives me for redacting the name out and posting it here

From Amarius. This is the original post, iirc, and is what all of my earlier comments were based on.The second post, with explanation, disappeared really fast, too, and unfortunately, that post at least has information that changes things. Do, apologies to Valley Climber. That disappeared post mattered.

Content warning: discussion of sexual assaultContent warning: discussion of sexual assault

To any women thinking of climbing in Yosemite Valley: do not go into the woods alone with [person]. I was waiting and hoping that someone else would call him out as I don't have all the facts of the situation, and I do not know the woman's perspective on the situation. However, I am 90%+ certain that a young woman was sexually assaulted and groped in the woods by [person] based on seeing him walk into the woods alone with her and hearing him brag about the situation multiple times to multiple people afterwards.

The facts as I know them are as follows: a few years ago [person] spent some time mentoring a young woman in her early 20s over a couple days while hanging out on the valley floor giving her lots of aid and big wall beta and advice. One evening he offered to show her his secret cowboy camping spot and have her camp with him. She agreed and as I was preparing my own cowboy camping bivy, [person] asked me to give them space and find a different spot to camp. I agreed and did so which I very much regret.

Later the next day [person] bragged to me and multiple others about about grabbing her breasts but her not letting him continue further.

To the woman who I am pretty damn certain was sexually assaulted that day: I am pretty sure you had climbed Munginella to Selaginella with a friend that day or the day before. I would describe your visual appearance but I don't wish to say anything that might identify you. If you wish to reach out to me and confirm what happened I would appreciate hearing your side of the story. If you do not wish to reach out then I understand and I wish you peace and hope you are well.

The lack of 100% certainty has made me hesitant to make such a post, but the likelihood that the groping was non-consensual seems pretty high (how many women in their early 20s want to be felt up by men three times their age?) combined with rumors I've heard of similar situations have led me to the conclusion that I can either say something or be complicit in this behavior, which I cannot in good conscience do.

Is this the community we want to have? Where women are preyed on by esteemed and respected members of the community and we stand by and do nothing? Or we whisper to each other and warn women behind his back? Is that really how we want to handle this?