Ugly Hardware Only

Found at Keyhole Canyon in Nevada

Oliver Dattilo wrote:

What even is this 

They are what happens when a top pro climber designs hardware, they were recalled and he went off to make climbing shoes.

Tyler Moody wrote:

From Misbehaving Raven. Every one of the eleven glue-ins on this route is installed shallow. 

I've been seeing more and more of these bad glue-in installations around Red Rock. It's concerning as glue-ins can be rather difficult to replace, especially if you want to reuse the hole. An occasional misalignment or slight off-angle orientation is one thing, but if every bolt is like this, it shows a lack of understanding of how to properly place glue-ins.

Tyler Moody wrote:

From Misbehaving Raven. Every one of the eleven glue-ins on this route is installed shallow. 

Does it seem like the hole was drilled at that upward angle, or it was drilled straight in but not deep enough, and then the glue-in was hammered downwards (therefore bending the bolt) to not stick out as much?

Tyler Moody wrote:

From Misbehaving Raven. Every one of the eleven glue-ins on this route is installed shallow. 

Nothing wrong with a little friendly critique letting the installer know why his work sucks. I mean, there’s probably a decent chance they’ll get offended or act like they already know everything, but who cares. Hopefully it will at least plant the seed that produces a better result the next time. 

Tyler Moody wrote:

From Misbehaving Raven. Every one of the eleven glue-ins on this route is installed shallow. 

OOF, complete with the developer info. Peak MP shame post, haha.

Jim Titt wrote:

They are what happens when a top pro climber designs hardware, they were recalled and he went off to make climbing shoes.

lol top pro climbers don't know anything about gear, in general, in my experience. We used to interview them all the time for insights that were never forthcoming.

Mutant finger strength has more to do with rock climbing than understanding gear. We all know more than one idiot that can pull harder than us.

Gee Monet wrote:

Does it seem like the hole was drilled at that upward angle, or it was drilled straight in but not deep enough, and then the glue-in was hammered downwards (therefore bending the bolt) to not stick out as much?

I was wondering the same thing. My initial thought was the hole was drilled at an angle, but given the hammer-set nature of these Crossover bolts, maybe the installer attempted to hammer them and ended up bending the eyelet down where it contacted the rock. At that point you can't do much more about it. A single bolt mistake of this nature is probably acceptable, but every bolt? That's concerning. All that said, it's most likely still safe, I'd have no qualms falling in it. 

Here's another ugly anchor I came across that is heavily used for TR gang banging a popular route. 

Unknown age, likely 90s? But climbing has been on this crag sporadically since the 70s

Pulled this out of an anchor last year. It was impeded exactly that deep. Geeze...

nbrown wrote:

Pulled this out of an anchor last year. It was impeded exactly that deep. Geeze...

I just can't imagine walking away from the cliff and thinking that this is acceptable.

Tyler Moody wrote:

From Misbehaving Raven. Every one of the eleven glue-ins on this route is installed shallow. 

Hey Tyler,  

I’m one of the developers of this route and did the drilling. This was the first route i have equipped with glue ins.  The hole was angeled up slightly and hence the orientation that you see.   The glue in was not hammered down.  

I agree as Salamanizer said about nothing wrong with a little friendly critiquing. I’m not offened. I want to improve as a developer.  I’m just puzzled, Tyler why you or no one reached out to us directly to share concerns or ask questions? It’s just fluke that I came upon this post. Also I wonder the motive for the picture of the bolt on the Misbehaving Raven page: To warn the public? Do they need warning?Should they be alarmed and stay off?  They might wonder.  Bottom line for me-are these bolts safe. Are they 100% safe?  Jake R seems to think so.  If they are not, I’m the first one that wants to remedy that and change them.  I’m so willing to do that.  I hate that these bolts are less than perfect and unsightly and might change them just for that reason.  I’m going to speak with Thomas Gilmore rebolting director for SNCC and make a decision.  

Thanks all. No hard feelings.  I hope we as developers can reach out to each other in the future when there are questions or concerns and have more of a collaborative, supportive relationship. 

Jo McCombs wrote:

Hey Tyler,  

I’m one of the developers of this route and did the drilling. This was the first route i have equipped with glue ins.  The hole was angeled up slightly and hence the orientation that you see.   The glue in was not hammered down.  

I agree as Salamanizer said about nothing wrong with a little friendly critiquing. I’m not offened. I want to improve as a developer.  I’m just puzzled, Tyler why you or no one reached out to us directly to share concerns or ask questions? It’s just fluke that I came upon this post. Also I’m wondering the motive for the picture of the bolt on the Misbehaving Raven page. To warn the public? Do they need warning? Should they be alarmed and stay off?  They might wonder.  Bottom line for me-are these bolts safe. Are they 100% safe?  Jake R seems to think so.  If they are not, I’m the first one that wants to remedy that and change them.  I’m so willing to do that.  I hate that these bolts are less than perfect and unsightly and might change them just for that reason.  I’m going to speak with Thomas Gilmore rebolting director for SNCC and make a decision.  Thanks all. No hard feelings.  I hope we as developers can reach out to each other in the future when there are questions or concerns and have more of a collaborative, supportive relationship. 

Ooooo! A small part of me miss the days when this conversation would happen at the crag parking lot.

Anyone with any experience developing knows there should be some grace every now and again. I have done worse than this and it cost me 3 times the amount of time and effort to fix it. This stuff is bound to happen and positive conversation and positive action is the best. I mean look at the amount of shit posted on this Thread! Imagine if I publicly shamed Fred Beckey for bolting bed frame hangers to a top 50 classic. Let god rest his soul.

Keep it real out there, developers are a small group. 

Jo McCombs wrote:

Hey Tyler,  

I’m one of the developers of this route and did the drilling. This was the first route i have equipped with glue ins.  The hole was angeled up slightly and hence the orientation that you see.   The glue in was not hammered down.  

I agree as Salamanizer said about nothing wrong with a little friendly critiquing. I’m not offened. I want to improve as a developer.  I’m just puzzled, Tyler why you or no one reached out to us directly to share concerns or ask questions? It’s just fluke that I came upon this post. Also I’m wondering the motive for the picture of the bolt on the Misbehaving Raven page. To warn the public? Do they need warning? Should they be alarmed and stay off?  They might wonder.  Bottom line for me-are these bolts safe. Are they 100% safe?  Jake R seems to think so.  If they are not, I’m the first one that wants to remedy that and change them.  I’m so willing to do that.  I hate that these bolts are less than perfect and unsightly and might change them just for that reason.  I’m going to speak with Thomas Gilmore rebolting director for SNCC and make a decision.  Thanks all. No hard feelings.  I hope we as developers can reach out to each other in the future when there are questions or concerns and have more of a collaborative, supportive relationship. 

While aesthetically unpleasing there is zero reason to suspect this bolt is unsafe as long as it was drilled to a proper depth and the glue set properly, imo.

The only legit criticism is that you didn't make it "pretty" although, those with a lack of familiarity with glue-ins might not "get it".

Jake R wrote:

Ooooo! A small part of me miss the days when this conversation would happen at the crag parking lot.

Anyone with any experience developing knows there should be some grace every now and again. I have done worse than this and it cost me 3 times the amount of time and effort to fix it. This stuff is bound to happen and positive conversation and positive action is the best. I mean look at the amount of shit posted on this Thread! Imagine if I publicly shamed Fred Beckey for bolting bed frame hangers to a top 50 classic. Let god rest his soul.

Keep it real out there, developers are a small group. 

As a fledgling developer myself, this is a great take.  The learning curve is steep and the shame factor significant in some areas.  I've gotten on here only to realize I've committed a terrible blasphemy against the bolting gods, and dive into the tools and skills needed to remedy it.  Training and mentorship is preciously scarce, and while there's so many online materials these days, they can't control for the nuances you find in-situ.  For folks at my level there's usually some way it could have been done better, so ya, come find me in the parking lot - you might just get a beer out of it.

NathanC wrote:

As a fledgling developer myself, this is a great take.  The learning curve is steep and the shame factor significant in some areas.  I've gotten on here only to realize I've committed a terrible blasphemy against the bolting gods, and dive into the tools and skills needed to remedy it.  Training and mentorship is preciously scarce, and while there's so many online materials these days, they can't control for the nuances you find in-situ.  For folks at my level there's usually some way it could have been done better, so ya, come find me in the parking lot - you might just get a beer out of it.

I'm much in the same boat as you are, but the shame factor absolutely *should* be very significant. Permanently altering the rock and placing gear that people will blindly trust is a huge responsibility and we as a community should put up as many road blocks and barriers to that as we can.

On the one hand, I love consuming internet bolting and development content and appreciate the sharing of testing/knowledge that comes from it. But on the other hand, lowering the bar of experience that it takes to develop new routes encourages people who really shouldn't be developing to get into it and get drill happy. Public shaming and outrage at a job poorly done is absolutely a great thing we can work to keep in place to help tamp down on rogue, drill happy people. 

Jeremy Bauman wrote:

I'm much in the same boat as you are, but the shame factor absolutely *should* be very significant. Permanently altering the rock and placing gear that people will blindly trust is a huge responsibility and we as a community should put up as many road blocks and barriers to that as we can.

On the one hand, I love consuming internet bolting and development content and appreciate the sharing of testing/knowledge that comes from it. But on the other hand, lowering the bar of experience that it takes to develop new routes encourages people who really shouldn't be developing to get into it and get drill happy. Public shaming and outrage at a job poorly done is absolutely a great thing we can work to keep in place to help tamp down on rogue, drill happy people. 

While I agree with what you’re saying, I do feel it’s important to state that that the shaming and public outrage shouldn’t delve into the realm of malice toward an individual. Rather, it should be in the form of “ wow that bolt job sucks, here’s how you can do it better”. The ones that refuse to listen and learn are the ones who should deserve actual contempt. Which points out the importance of teaching those willing to learn by those who already made the mistakes we so readily condemn. 

Have some clean up to do in an area there’s been some bolt wars - any recommendations for removing bashed bolts?

Tal M wrote:

Have some clean up to do in an area there’s been some bolt wars - any recommendations for removing bashed bolts?

You can sometimes file the burrs and get a wrench on, but this one looks pretty far gone. Main reason to get the wrench on is to tighten the bolt until it snaps, or just to draw the bolt higher up before you cut it off (so you can tap the remnant back in before patching).

In this case, angle grinder to start with. If you haven't used one, it's very easy to cut into the rock itself, so best to practice in concrete first. Serious eye protection, keep your eyes away from the plane of the spinning disc, and watch sparks - don't want the next major fire to start from your crag! I first removed some dried grass near the last anchor I had to angle grind (in that case it was removing a half-open frozen huge 1/2" quick link).

If it's Wilderness, if you can pry the hanger out from the rock you can use a bare hacksaw blade behind the hanger (with duct tape around one end of the blade as the "handle"), since it's supple it's easy to keep along the face of the rock. If it's not possible, you can use a standard hacksaw (with rigid handle), looks like you'd have to aim for the nut/washer junction on this one. Don't expect hacksawing to work quick though...