8.5 Haul Line????

So this product popped up:
https://hownot2.com/products/high-tech-big-wall-haul-line?srsltid=AfmBOoq-kO-6a3fS_pmIG4KYhzqqQ1nKlpl-V2bjzlSHTNTSn48JFfHI

see stats^^

I probably won't be the one to try it out... but an 8.5 hyper static Haul line seems might nice compared to my current thickems...

What do ya'll think?

My personal opinion is I don't want to trade any durability for weight.  It is usually really hard to get both lightweight and durable in most products.  I want as durable a rope as possible for hauling.  To be fair I am not saying this rope is less durable....I just don't know.  And honestly durability is hard to test outside of the real world.  Besides the difference between 42g/m or 62g/m is only 2.5lbs for a 60m rope.  Most people could easier shave that off their rack and back clean a bit more.  Or if a person really cared about weight then climb when it is cold so you can take less water.  Dialing in how much a person drinks based on all the factors could save way more weight.  I have definitely arrived at the top with 2 or 3 gallons of water still left (ie 15-20lbs).  Bottom line is I think there are a LOT of other topics of discussion for weight savings before we start taking about haul lines.

I used 9mm for years and really just hated it. Cutting bags loose over edges, or fixing and jugging the lines always made me pucker a bit. The ropes we used were free so that was the main driver, but they didn't last very long sometimes only 1 wall. 

Marlin Thorman wrote:

My personal opinion is I don't want to trade any durability for weight.  It is usually really hard to get both lightweight and durable in most products.  I want as durable a rope as possible for hauling.  To be fair I am not saying this rope is less durable....I just don't know.  And honestly durability is hard to test outside of the real world.  Besides the difference between 42g/m or 62g/m is only 2.5lbs for a 60m rope.  Most people could easier shave that off their rack and back clean a bit more.  Or if a person really cared about weight then climb when it is cold so you can take less water.  Dialing in how much a person drinks based on all the factors could save way more weight.  I have definitely arrived at the top with 2 or 3 gallons of water still left (ie 15-20lbs).  Bottom line is I think there are a LOT of other topics of discussion for weight savings before we start taking about haul lines.

I really like the Sterling HTX (I think that’s the name) for my haul lines.  It’s super static and has such little stretch it’s awesome.  It’s available in 9mm and 3/8”

9mm for light and fast and 3/8” for beefy wall hauling. 

But I totally agree with your point about better places to shave weight.  I don’t think critical gear like haul lines are where weight savings should be taken in trade for durability….
I constantly get asked to make repairs on equipment that was designed with only weight savings in mind,  while sacrificing durability, which is critical in wall climbing.  ersonally I don’t care that your bla bla bla weighs 13oz, if it doesn’t hold up to actual wall climbing it’s useless.  

My goal is to make things as light as possible while still being able to withstand use on an actual wall.  If the item doesn’t hold up to real world use it doesn’t matter how light it is.  

Sterling HTx are the shit!  
Oh, and anyone who brings beer on a wall forfeits their right to complain about gear weight.  Change my mind….. 

Marlin Thorman wrote:

My personal opinion is I don't want to trade any durability for weight.  It is usually really hard to get both lightweight and durable in most products.  I want as durable a rope as possible for hauling.  To be fair I am not saying this rope is less durable....I just don't know.  And honestly durability is hard to test outside of the real world.  Besides the difference between 42g/m or 62g/m is only 2.5lbs for a 60m rope.  Most people could easier shave that off their rack and back clean a bit more.  Or if a person really cared about weight then climb when it is cold so you can take less water.  Dialing in how much a person drinks based on all the factors could save way more weight.  I have definitely arrived at the top with 2 or 3 gallons of water still left (ie 15-20lbs).  Bottom line is I think there are a LOT of other topics of discussion for weight savings before we start taking about haul lines.

2.5lbs is a significant weight savings imo. But I do agree that I almost always prefer durability over weight savings for a haul line 

Skot Richards wrote:

to quote one the one and only Gnarly Marley 

whoever doesn't bring beer on a wall is a LOSER!

Marlin Thorman wrote:

My personal opinion is I don't want to trade any durability for weight.  It is usually really hard to get both lightweight and durable in most products.  I want as durable a rope as possible for hauling.  To be fair I am not saying this rope is less durable....I just don't know.  And honestly durability is hard to test outside of the real world.  Besides the difference between 42g/m or 62g/m is only 2.5lbs for a 60m rope.  Most people could easier shave that off their rack and back clean a bit more.  Or if a person really cared about weight then climb when it is cold so you can take less water.  Dialing in how much a person drinks based on all the factors could save way more weight.  I have definitely arrived at the top with 2 or 3 gallons of water still left (ie 15-20lbs).  Bottom line is I think there are a LOT of other topics of discussion for weight savings before we start taking about haul lines.

Water is the last place you want to cut to save weight. If you do bring to much water; drink more, you never can drink to much water on a wall. One gallon a person per a day minimum all year around. With the static rope, I use 10.5 to 11mm. Blue water or Metiolus. Sterling makes great static lines too. With cutting weight, don’t bring all the gear on every pitch. Tag, back clean if possible, and just take less. When you get to the top of a pitch, look at the gear on your rack, and ask yourself, “could I have taken less”. 

Chris White wrote:

Water is the last place you want to cut to save weight. If you do bring to much water; drink more, you never can drink to much water on a wall. One gallon a person per a day minimum all year around. With the static rope, I use 10.5 to 11mm. Blue water or Metiolus. Sterling makes great static lines too. With cutting weight, don’t bring all the gear on every pitch. Tag, back clean if possible, and just take less. When you get to the top of a pitch, look at the gear on your rack, and ask yourself, “could I have taken less”. 

My entire post was about cutting the overall weight of the entire setup.  You can absolutely cut water weight by choosing when to climb.  A person climbing El Cap in a hot week in September is going to need way more water than a cold week in late October.  A gallon per day is an estimate.  I have a partner that is more like 1.25 gallons per day while I am more like .75 gallons per day.  You figure these specifics out by climbing.  Start with a gallon per person per day plus 1 extra overall and then keep track as you climb different routes.  So if a 2.5lb weight savings is meaningful to you then climb when it is cold.  You could save that 2.5lbs per day you are on the wall over when it is hot.  And as Skot said if you are carrying beer but trying to save 2.5lbs on a different haul line then you lost your right to complain about weight.  El Cap isn't a lightweight alpine climb, starting out with 2 people on a 6 day route your pigs are going to be 150-200lbs anyway (or more).

A haul line doesn't even factor into my mind about cutting weight on a particular pitch because I climb with a zip system which means I never have the weight of any haul line.  So if you are looking at the weight savings from this aspect...again don't try to buy the lightest haul line...just learn how to use a zip system.  

Again I am not advocating the new haul is bad.  I am saying durability is key when it comes to haul lines on big wall routes like El Cap.

Kurt Burt Arend wrote:

to quote one the one and only Gnarly Marley 

whoever doesn't bring beer on a wall is a LOSER!

I can confirm no beer was on route when Joe and I teamed up with Fabio Eli 

Marlin Thorman wrote:

My entire post was about cutting the overall weight of the entire setup.  You can absolutely cut water weight by choosing when to climb.  A person climbing El Cap in a hot week in September is going to need way more water than a cold week in late October.  A gallon per day is an estimate.  I have a partner that is more like 1.25 gallons per day while I am more like .75 gallons per day.  You figure these specifics out by climbing.  Start with a gallon per person per day plus 1 extra overall and then keep track as you climb different routes.  So if a 2.5lb weight savings is meaningful to you then climb when it is cold.  You could save that 2.5lbs per day you are on the wall over when it is hot.  And as Skot said if you are carrying beer but trying to save 2.5lbs on a different haul line then you lost your right to complain about weight.  El Cap isn't a lightweight alpine climb, starting out with 2 people on a 6 day route your pigs are going to be 150-200lbs anyway (or more).

A haul line doesn't even factor into my mind about cutting weight on a particular pitch because I climb with a zip system which means I never have the weight of any haul line.  So if you are looking at the weight savings from this aspect...again don't try to buy the lightest haul line...just learn how to use a zip system.  

Again I am not advocating the new haul is bad.  I am saying durability is key when it comes to haul lines on big wall routes like El Cap.

It’s awesome who think like you do, I agree. I have observed that when beginner wall climbers think they are bringing to much, the first thing they cut is water. It’s probably the #1 reason for failure. And if you bring more than one beer a day you probably should be in Big Wall Anonymous. 

Kurt Burt Arend wrote:

to quote one the one and only Gnarly Marley 

whoever doesn't bring beer on a wall is a LOSER!

Forgot to mention,  I have never brought beer on a wall.  So I guess I’m a 13x loser. 

Probably bitchin. I've hauled on 6mm cord that is similar in construction to Skot's Zed cord, and that held up just fine to about 2 weeks of abuse on Keeler Needle

Skot Richards wrote:

Forgot to mention,  I have never brought beer on a wall.  So I guess I’m a 13x loser. 

Whiskey?

Perry Norris wrote:

Whiskey?

Negative.   I don’t drink.  

I wouldn't feel really happy jugging it...

This rope is part of a welcome shift toward skinnier ropes, which is something I've been working on as well.  As for this particular construction, the ad is not fully correct: Vectran is not an aramid, and has terrible durability in the sun.  Of the two aramids, Kevlar and Technora, Technora is the most UV-stable.  It's also more expensive than Vectran, which is the cheapest of the modern technical fibers (currently: fiber prices had huge volatility during the Pandemic, and are not fully stable yet, esp. with Taco's Tariffs.  Maybe it'll surpass Technora again one day).

I think the notion of modern skinny ropes cutting easier can be de-bunked by actually trying to cut a Dyneema-cored, Technora covered rope with the same knife you just used to cut an 11mm Nylon rope of any construction.  I can slice through an 11mm nylon or polyester rope way easier than through an 8mm Technora/poly cover with a Dyneema core.

The thing with a braided core of High Modulus fibers like Dyneema or one of its approximates (Acera, Nextsteel, Styrotex, Spectra, chineema, etc), is that if you do tear though the cover, you still have a pretty tough core to chafe through before the rope fails.  With a kernmantle nylon rope, you've got really heavy, weak, easily-cut materials--that's why skinny ropes are being found with Dyneema, Vectran, Technora, etc in the covers: it just makes them harder to cut as well as lighter.

I'm working toward the day when the fattest haul line will be 8mm, and everyone will be rapping/tagging/glacier travelling on 6mm.  We have the rope technology already, it's just a matter of getting UIAA standards to catch up (working on that too), getting a rope product made at an affordable scale, and making devices that will accomodate that range while remaining ergonomic.  And then convincing people that just because something looks skinny doesn't make it weaker or worse.  That's the biggest hurdle, since the gut instict is strong with some.  But, we got away from 1" knotted Nylon slings eventually....it just takes time.

.

A couple of musings here for me.

First, cavers have used small ropes for a very long time, down as far as 7mm. They do not have the same durability as older and bigger ropes, and we never let them touch rock while weighted. This isn't quite the same as this, because this is built with much more durable materials, but the loss of durability is a real concern.

Second, the best way we as climbers and cavers can reduce our impact is lowering the amount of plastic fibers we use. This is one reason a shift to thinner ropes and slings is such a benefit. Go thin, light, and recycled whenever you can.  

Gimme thiccy

Oliver Dattilo wrote:

A couple of musings here for me.

First, cavers have used small ropes for a very long time, down as far as 7mm. They do not have the same durability as older and bigger ropes, and we never let them touch rock while weighted. This isn't quite the same as this, because this is built with much more durable materials, but the loss of durability is a real concern.

Second, the best way we as climbers and cavers can reduce our impact is lowering the amount of plastic fibers we use. This is one reason a shift to thinner ropes and slings is such a benefit. Go thin, light, and recycled whenever you can.  

If a thinner rope lasts fewer ascents, wouldn't it have a larger environmental impact than a thicker rope that lasts longer?

Bailey Moore wrote:

If a thinner rope lasts fewer ascents, wouldn't it have a larger environmental impact than a thicker rope that lasts longer?

Depends. Each additional mm adds exponentially more material.

Also, in caving at least, the ropes last a very long time because thin ropes arn't allowed to touch the rock. We use redirects and such to prevent abrasion.