Seudo pre rigged bolted anchor

This may be silly, and I am a new multi pitch/trad climber but I like playing around with gear so hear me out. I came up with this idea the other day and I wanted to hear people’s thoughts about it. I can take an actual picture when I am home but here is a drawing. The idea is a seudo pre rigged anchor with your standard girth hitched sliding x anchor with a 120cm sling and two biners on bolts. I like the idea of using a rappel ring for the master point because it’s cheaper than another hms biner, and I also like using my connect adjust to clip in versus a clove hitch, although that may change with time. There is a wire biner on a QuickDraw dog bone attached to the right side locker biner to serve a couple purposes. Main thought is that on a multi pitch you should always clip a draw to anchors when leading so you don’t fall directly onto the belay device in the case of a fall before first bolt/gear placement. Additional thoughts are as follows. If you are tied into the master point, and belaying from above from the master point, the quick draw can be used as a back up by clove hitching the rope to it.

A bigger use that I want input on is tying directly to that. Personally it bugs me a bit when I am tied into the master point as well as belaying from there because it feels very cluttered and tight. With this mentioned, I wanted input into how safe it would be to belay from above from the master point and tie into the right side biner, or vice versa. I assumed this could be an issue because you are putting more weight on one bolt than the other but I wanted input.

Any ideas from anyone about this and any good resources to show anchor building and different ways to go about this/ further information?

Looks fine to me. Not much different than using a pre-tied quad. I often clip into one of the carabiners on the bolts so I’m not on the same master point I’m belaying on as you said. Weight on the bolt won’t matter unless you’re on old manky bolts or rivets or something. A quad will have a few more clip-in points as well, but I know people hate quads for some reason. I guess idk what problem this anchor is fixing, but it’ll sure work just fine. 

I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. In my opinion, a girth hitch master point makes more sense with a 60 cm sling instead of a 120 cm, I feel that a 120 might be a little awkward distance if you're clipped into one bolt and belaying from above. Again this is just personal preference, but I would rather use an HMS for the master point, solely for the fact that you can use it elsewhere, where the rap ring is only used for this on a standard bolted multi pitch. Just my thoughts 

A quad seems simpler and easier, and then all components can be repurposed if needed/desired. It’s not uncommon that I use my “anchor” as a long extension, or to sling a tree… Wouldn’t it be nice if that draw was an actual draw when you realize you’re short on draws?

If you like the gear and systems, maybe play with how to make every piece of kit you carry the most useful in different scenarios, with the least amount of extra stuff. Can you readily make an anchor on two bolts with one or no carabiners?

“… Main thought is that on a multi pitch you should always clip a draw to anchors when leading so you don’t fall directly onto the belay device…” 

I’d be careful about “always”. By default I don’t clip the anchor, when I do its for specific reasons, such as hard climbing right off the anchor. 

“…the quick draw can be used as a back up by clove hitching the rope to it.”

I might discourage thinking of this as a “backup”. It’s extra complexity that doesn’t really add any security. Every time you add another connection that needs to be clipped/unclipped you increase the likelihood of mistakes. Keep it clean and simple. Is the “backup” providing security, or am I just scared?

There is nothing wrong or dangerous about your setup, but it does mean carrying (assuming it’s used at each anchor) two devoted slings, two rings, 4 carabiners and two “draws” that are not easy to deploy for anything other than a belay.

I’m anti-PAS, but know people like them. If instead you use a sling for rap-extensions and teathers, you have another piece of material that can be used for building anchors, extending gear, slinging trees… on the way up. The clove is a nice attachment because it’s way more adjustable/versatile, and eliminates one more piece of kit that’s not very utilitarian.  I can think of several anchors where I climb where extending my clove 3’ allows me to be on a nice ledge where a PAS I’m hanging just above it. 

Peter Thomas wrote:

A quad seems simpler and easier, and then all components can be repurposed if needed/desired. It’s not uncommon that I use my “anchor” as a long extension, or to sling a tree… Wouldn’t it be nice if that draw was an actual draw when you realize you’re short on draws?

If you like the gear and systems, maybe play with how to make every piece of kit you carry the most useful in different scenarios, with the least amount of extra stuff. Can you readily make an anchor on two bolts with one or no carabiners?

“… Main thought is that on a multi pitch you should always clip a draw to anchors when leading so you don’t fall directly onto the belay device…” 

I’d be careful about “always”. By default I don’t clip the anchor, when I do its for specific reasons, such as hard climbing right off the anchor. 

“…the quick draw can be used as a back up by clove hitching the rope to it.”

I might discourage thinking of this as a “backup”. It’s extra complexity that doesn’t really add any security. Every time you add another connection that needs to be clipped/unclipped you increase the likelihood of mistakes. Keep it clean and simple. Is the “backup” providing security, or am I just scared?

There is nothing wrong or dangerous about your setup, but it does mean carrying (assuming it’s used at each anchor) two devoted slings, two rings, 4 carabiners and two “draws” that are not easy to deploy for anything other than a belay.

I’m anti-PAS, but know people like them. If instead you use a sling for rap-extensions and teathers, you have another piece of material that can be used for building anchors, extending gear, slinging trees… on the way up. The clove is a nice attachment because it’s way more adjustable/versatile, and eliminates one more piece of kit that’s not very utilitarian.  I can think of several anchors where I climb where extending my clove 3’ allows me to be on a nice ledge where a PAS I’m hanging just above it. 

Thanks for the super insightful response, I really appreciate it, I come from a sport climbing background which I think is the reason I love my connect adjust, I use it to clean sport routes frequently. I see your point with the backup and only thought of that after reading a post previously about how it’s always good to make systems redundant when possible, but that’s just a thought.

Further when you say you don’t always clip bolts, what’s your reasoning. If it doesn’t hurt to lose one draw, wouldn’t it always make sense to clip anchor bolts to prevent a radical fall onto your belay device? Looking for info, not an arguement. 👍

Caleb Hils wrote:

Thanks for the super insightful response, I really appreciate it, I come from a sport climbing background which I think is the reason I love my connect adjust, I use it to clean sport routes frequently. I see your point with the backup and only thought of that after reading a post previously about how it’s always good to make systems redundant when possible, but that’s just a thought.

Further when you say you don’t always clip bolts, what’s your reasoning. If it doesn’t hurt to lose one draw, wouldn’t it always make sense to clip anchor bolts to prevent a radical fall onto your belay device? Looking for info, not an arguement. 👍

Well "always" is a strong word to use! Very different meaning than "often" or "when appropriate." Clipping a high anchor piece is a pretty common technique, and there's certainly times and places where it's a reasonable choice.

However there's also reasons to not clip the first bolt that have nothing to do with the number of draws. For example, if it's a cramped stance with the belayer pretty close to the anchor, clipping the first bolt really gets in the way of them feeding and taking slack effectively because the throw between the belay device and the bolt is quite small. This can make it more challenging to give a good belay. Another reason is the belayer can pretty easily get pulled into that high piece just because of the distance they can get pulled on the anchor; at best it's super uncomfortable, but getting yarded into the carabiner like that can both defeat a Grigri (if belaying with one) and generally make it more difficult to maintain a strong belay regardless of device. There's also certainly times when the highest piece in an anchor is the weakest piece (of course more applicable when building gear anchors) and you'd want to avoid loading it with a high factor lead fall.

There's a few other ways to manage the scenario of difficult climbing right off the belay without clipping the highest anchor piece;

- A fixed point lead belay, which is especially nice when belaying off bolts. A fixed point belay doesn't reduce the likelihood of a factor 2 fall, but it does shift the impact force from the belayer to the anchor, making it vastly easier to maintain control of the belay in the event of a fall.

- When finishing the prior pitch, climb past the anchor and pre-place and pre-clip the first piece of the next pitch, then downclimb back to the anchor. You can then either belay them through that piece, or belay as usual off the anchor and pull rope through the piece once they're at the anchor and ready to lead the next pitch. Now they get a top rope for the opening moves of the next pitch and you don't need to worry as much about a factor 2 fall

- Extend the belayer to well below the anchor and clip the high anchor point (like you mentioned). With more space and more rope in the system it's less likely that the belayer will get pulled up and into that first piece. You can also add a directional tether to the belayer to keep them from getting pulled up if appropriate.

https://climbingdangers.net/

There is a link in the above article to Gaines and Long’s anchor building guide, 4th edition.  I tried to insert it directly but I’m on the road and sometimes things via the phone won’t cooperate. But if you are a new trad climber there are other things in the above link that might interest you. 

Haha way ahead of ya 

The swivel allows a static or rotatable point depending what you’re clipping into it.

Had to cut open into that sling but i was getting zero use out of that bulky mammut magic sling beforehand 

Matt Z wrote:

Well "always" is a strong word to use! Very different meaning than "often" or "when appropriate." Clipping a high anchor piece is a pretty common technique, and there's certainly times and places where it's a reasonable choice.

However there's also reasons to not clip the first bolt that have nothing to do with the number of draws. For example, if it's a cramped stance with the belayer pretty close to the anchor, clipping the first bolt really gets in the way of them feeding and taking slack effectively because the throw between the belay device and the bolt is quite small. This can make it more challenging to give a good belay. Another reason is the belayer can pretty easily get pulled into that high piece just because of the distance they can get pulled on the anchor; at best it's super uncomfortable, but getting yarded into the carabiner like that can both defeat a Grigri (if belaying with one) and generally make it more difficult to maintain a strong belay regardless of device. There's also certainly times when the highest piece in an anchor is the weakest piece (of course more applicable when building gear anchors) and you'd want to avoid loading it with a high factor lead fall.

There's a few other ways to manage the scenario of difficult climbing right off the belay without clipping the highest anchor piece;

- A fixed point lead belay, which is especially nice when belaying off bolts. A fixed point belay doesn't reduce the likelihood of a factor 2 fall, but it does shift the impact force from the belayer to the anchor, making it vastly easier to maintain control of the belay in the event of a fall.

- When finishing the prior pitch, climb past the anchor and pre-place and pre-clip the first piece of the next pitch, then downclimb back to the anchor. You can then either belay them through that piece, or belay as usual off the anchor and pull rope through the piece once they're at the anchor and ready to lead the next pitch. Now they get a top rope for the opening moves of the next pitch and you don't need to worry as much about a factor 2 fall

- Extend the belayer to well below the anchor and clip the high anchor point (like you mentioned). With more space and more rope in the system it's less likely that the belayer will get pulled up and into that first piece. You can also add a directional tether to the belayer to keep them from getting pulled up if appropriate.

Thank you for the extensive bit of information! I think those are a lot of good things to consider and Im going to think through those for sure, I really appreciate it. I’m not super familiar with how you would set up and do a fixed lead belay for lead belaying your partner, is that something you could explain/ give resources? 

There are lots of ways to do this, but here’s some info
https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/belaying-the-leader-with-a-fixed-point-belay

A girth hitched rap ring can loosen and flip in a way that looks like it's still attached, but it's barely held on, and will pop out when weighted. It's rare but it has killed people before and it's worth mentioning to a new climber IMO

A small quad made from a 180cm sling seems to be among the best pre-rigged anchors. Adding in the draw on one side is fine but offers less of an advantage than you’d think most of the time.

check out this resource that has more than most climbers will ever know and goes into detail about many options https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm

not surprisingly, years before instagram, David Coley and Andy Kirkpatrick were writing about many techniques that are only now becoming mainstream: girth hitch master points, fixed point belays, chariot belays etc. 

Thanks everyone for all the info, it’s greatly appreciated! Will read through all this info and absorb as much as I can. I have also heard of the girth hitch ring failure and know to be aware of that. Thanks!

Yukon Cornelius wrote:

A girth hitched rap ring can loosen and flip in a way that looks like it's still attached, but it's barely held on, and will pop out when weighted. It's rare but it has killed people before and it's worth mentioning to a new climber IMO

Here is video of what Yukon was explaining.  Whether it is threading rope or attaching a carabiner, one could pretty easily make this mistake with a rappel ring.

https://youtu.be/Ky8iEm_Z34Q?si=jz6_P37dujhIngSq

In this 2nd video, it explains strength reasons why rappel ring less suited for the job ... & I kinda agree with him that if you are bringing a specialty piece with you, you have to question if its necessary.  Using a locking biner at least gives you an extra biner if needed for other tasks (not that rappel rings are not sometimes nice).  He also shows using a magic-x with girth hitch that might in part help avoid issue above, but not sure it would entirely obviate the problem.

https://youtu.be/dgHlAlucRvc?si=l_nYTB-42w4yYdxx