michelino-sunseri-found-guilty-of-cutting-national-park-switchback

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

The bigger issue is the decision to cheat while going for an fkt record. Don't wish punishment on anyone for taking a short cut but do find it telling when someone cheats on a record attempt. 

I think FKT recognized his time and track only to disqualify him after charges were levied. Several prior record holders had also used the same trail. For a lot of FKT’s there isn’t a super specific trail or exact route. 

This somewhat reminds of the controversy around some of Dean Potter’s fast efforts in the Valley. Some pure runners said his line for Half Dome was too “technical”. Chouinard claimed he was “cheating” if he used a wingsuit to descend quickly when linking formations. 

I think the original concept of the FKT was to push boundaries and techniques. Unfortunately, as with most pursuits, it always reduces to conformity and rules to “level the playing field”.  

Dirtbag Betawrote:

"Officer, arrest these men!"

“Federal Officials” are at this moment, organizing a multi million dollar extra special nationwide and international task force to identify, locate and prosecute(persecute) these obviously deranged and heinous individuals.  

And old school pioneers usually talked about how long their ascents took too. 

I think the original concept of the FKT was to push boundaries and techniques. Unfortunately, as with most pursuits, it always reduces to conformity and rules to “level the playing field”.  

That's competition for ya, climbing (trail running) is merely the competitive medium. 

People have to agree to the measurements on a ruler, or comparison becomes somewhat problematic. Enter the rules...

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

That's competition for ya, climbing (trail running) is merely the competitive medium. 

People have to agree to the measurements on a ruler, or comparison becomes somewhat problematic. Enter the rules...

In some instances I agree with your point, but like I stated, initially FKT seekers were looking for the fastest line, not simply following the established norm. If people want to compete for time on an established route, that’s up to them, but if the claim is to be fastest up and down a mountain, cliff, etc., the time is what counts, not conforming to the efforts of others. 

It’s a pretty consistent pattern that when “people” don’t possess adequate technique, fitness, vision, motivation, etc. they create rules to remain competitive. 

JW- I agree with your point about times for specific agreed upon routes.  My point is the FKT may not always be the ”designated” route. And yeah, obviously conformity is preferable for most of life’s mundane situations.  

Allen Sanderson- I read the article in your link. The info provided makes this situation even more absurd to me. The whole article was a weird appeal to authority. “Walk single file on the trail” was especially comical. I didn’t realize that FKT was owned by Outside magazine, but now the hand wringing over the rules makes perfect sense now.  Cherokee is spot on about conforming to rules being a key construct of the monetization of any activity. Do you actually believe that an “investigation’“ and a three day trial is an appropriate response for a guy cutting a single switchback?

At the end of the day the Fastest known time is the fastest time whether it’s recognized by company called FKT, or any number of people. 

JW- thanks for the Irunfar article, yeah, it is a much more detailed and interesting take. I thought it’s cool that Andy Anderson knows and acknowledges that Sunseri’s time is the fastest. It’s interesting how most involved thought the case was an overreach. It’s cool that Sunseri offered to work to provide a solution (clearly defined signage). I think that all interested would benefit from reading the Irunfar article, I know that I did.

JW- I agree that defining “the best” in many pursuits, it’s necessary to follow clearly set rules, but we’re talking about finding the fastest way up and down a mountain using human power. If an athlete climbs the GT or any big feature, then wingsuits down, setting the fastest time, that’s the FKT. People are free to choose to compete for the best time running up and down a specific line but that may not be the fastest known time.  My point is, sometimes someone accomplishes something using a unique(but still human powered) technique, then another group who doesn’t have the new and unique technique says, “you didn’t do what I did, so even though you are faster, your effort is not really the fastest”. 

JW- thanks! I appreciate your contributions to this thread too.

Daniel Shivelywrote:

I think FKT recognized his time and track only to disqualify him after charges were levied.

The charges came later. This Jackson Hole News & Guide gives a good description.

Allen Sandersonwrote:

perps who broadcast their crimes often get prosecuted

You, and others on this site, really think this guy is a criminal who deserves to have a federal misdemeanor on his record for this?? Agree to disagree there, this should be a civil infraction at most.

Reportedly, via a FOIA request by Michelino, the NPS deputy director also felt the 5 year ban plea deal being offered was over criminalization and pulled the support for pressing charges before the trial. The prosecutors did not share that at trial and proceeded anyways. Legal experts and the House Judiciary Committee have also flagged it as an example of overcriminalization. 

Also the NPS alleges this trail has been marked closed for some 50 years, yet it hasn't overgrown in that time. Did you catch that in the transcripts?? Seems they haven't ever cared to enforce this in the past, and many people have continued to use it, so why does this guy deserve to be treated differently?

You seem to have implicit trust that the judge, prosecutors, and justice system should not be questioned, but I would argue it's been made especially clear recently that it's folly to have such blind faith in our government to treat everyone justly and equal. I want to know how we can hold these prosecutors responsible for such a waste of tax payer resources!

Nick Goldsmith wrote:
The bigger issue is the decision to cheat.

Where are the written rules for this mountain game?? Are you aware all but one of the previous FKT holders used that shortcut? So who exactly did he cheat -- do you somehow feel cheated as a spectator? Or are you speaking on behalf of the previous record holder, because it doesn't seem like Andy Anderson would agree, as he ceded the "official" belt buckle (made by this other runner)(Andy has avoided making, or I can't find, any official statement, but Michelino mentions it here and has the belt buckle in hand).

If you think FKT.com has the official rule book, this Jackson-based photographer/law school grad documents multiple discrepancies in their administration of the title (and provides a very in-depth breakdown of the whole situation): When Michelino attempted the FKT, the site only stated it must start and stop at the Lupine Meadows Trailhead and listed five FKTs for Grand Teton, all without flags. The site left route specifics to athletes. Additionally, four of the five FKTs previously accepted by the site also ran the old climber’s trail, one accepted as recently as 2022. Across the site it sometimes lists details for routes with specific trails, and other times it's a measure of the fastest trip from point A to point B with route nuances spread word-of-mouth amongst athletes.

The history of the Grand Teton FKT dates back to 1939, with an attempt by John Holyoke and Joe Hawkes. Subsequent record times were set in 1972, 1981, 1983 (twice), and 2012 (twice), all before the FKT site was launched in 2018, and with many route variations. It is nearly impossible for someone to take the same route twice above the meadows since it's such a maze of "trails". Supposedly Killian's FKT involved some glissading -- no one said he cheated. There is long standing tradition for the Grand FKT to be administered and awarded within the group of athletes competing for it and the rest of us, including the FKT site admins, are just spectators.

Steve Williamswrote:

Let's hope he gets a large fine and banning from the park. this was an act to aggrandize himself.

What part is aggrandizing? Is it the FKT, or publicizing the FKT, or just being a pro athlete?? It's his job to compete in running, which setting a speed record definitely falls into that category. What part of that earns him a big fine and park ban?? Seems you just don't like the guy, or don't like runners maybe?

Allen Sanderson wrote:
I used the term mouth masturbation to describe the ad nauseum posting of so called records, especially those with minor differences for trivial pursuits. FKT are a good example of that.

FKT is just another way of saying speed record, which climbers (and many other humans) have been clamoring about since the dawn of competition. The first 100m dash record was set in 1891 (unofficially; 1912 by official records) and the first land speed record was set in 1898. I don't disagree that the internet and social media has taken it to another level, and quite possibly one that's not healthy for society, but that's a whole other ball of wax that is being created by corporate overlords (and maybe our government leaders??). Pro athletes are just using the tools available to reach their audience and make their sponsors happy -- they didn't create the damn thing and I don't think should be witch-hunted for their use of such evil powers.

All the haters wrote:
blah blah blah

Supposedly only 3 people on this earth have ever made it from TH to summit and back in sub 3hr. To all of them, WOW that is an incredible accomplishment!! And noteably Andy's no shortcut time is all that more impressive! But to all you who are judging Michelino pretty hard could never come close to such an athletic accomplishment -- get over your insecurities. Today I listened to a podcast with Michelino talking about his career and the FKT, among other things, and he genuinely seems like a nice enough normal guy that loves playing in the mountains, not unlike many of us on here. And he admits that he could've handled his comms following the FKT better and possibly avoided antagonizing NPS. He certainly has some ego, but top performing athlete's need to believe they're the best to be the best, so that comes with the job and he seems to manage as well as most. Maybe not someone I'd end up being best friends with, but I'd definitely rope up with him or get a beer and talk mountain stories.

Daniel Shively wrote:
It’s a tough pill to swallow to realize that some “climbers” would proclaim support for a man to be arrested for running down a trail. Strange times.

It sure is. But it reminds me why I drift away from the hellscape forums of MP. So much vitriol and armchairing! And then I'm drawn into an afternoon (after climbing ~900ft + 6mi hike this morning) of actual research so we can have an informed conversation, and it'll likely be met with a snarky meme that a middle schooler could produce. Alas, back to reading books it is!!

Edit to add: the irunfar article is really well balanced. At this point I don't support Michelino's actions on trail or in the aftermath, but I also don't support how the gov is handling it (or that they have any involvement). There is an interesting comment to that article that very much makes me question supporting Michelino's legal defense (while still strongly believing it shouldn't be criminal at all): 

It looks like Michelino's counsel includes the Pacific Legal Foundation, a conservative legal advocacy group that is a strong opponent of environmental regulation. The arguments advanced in Michelino's defense include that the regulation against switchback cutting is unconstitutional. Their brief states: "[The] trail restrictions are also unlawful, because their authorization under 36 C.F.R. § 2.1(b) stems from the rulemaking authorization of the National Park Service’s Organic Act, 54 U.S.C. § 100751(a), which is void because it unconstitutionally delegates lawmaking power."  If successful, that argument would not only impact the switchback cutting regulation, but severely hamstring the National Park Service's ability to manage activities in and use of our National Parks much more broadly.

This whole thing stinks!!

If the current fkt community is okay with the short cut then fine. If he knew he wasn't supposed to go that way not fine as far as the record goes. But as I said earlier a massive waste of time and money by the government and just one more example of the police State in action. 

At least he’s getting attention. Isn’t that what people want?  Gov is “making an example” of him, and he can revel in his martyrdom. 
The athlete that impresses me most is Kilian Jornet. Not only has he held some wild mountain FKTs, but he goes and wins the UTMB, Hardrock, skimo races, etc, where conditions, course, and timing are the same for everyone on race day.
All of these folks are so fast it makes my head spin. 

Balewrote:

At least he’s getting attention. Isn’t that what people want?  Gov is “making an example” of him, and he can revel in his martyrdom.
The athlete that impresses me most is Kilian Jornet. Not only has he held some wild mountain FKTs, but he goes and wins the UTMB, Hardrock, skimo races, etc, where conditions, course, and timing are the same for everyone on race day.
All of these folks are so fast it makes my head spin. 

You know Kilian took the same shortcut Michelino did for his FKT, right?

Shay Subramanianwrote:

You know Kilian took the same shortcut Michelino did for his FKT, right?

Yes, that’s why Andy Anderson has the FKT, no?

No, Andy has the FKT because he's a speedy badass

Andy Wwrote:

You, and others on this site, really think this guy is a criminal who deserves to have a federal misdemeanor on his record for this?? Agree to disagree there, this should be a civil infraction at most.

Reportedly, via a FOIA request by Michelino, the NPS deputy director also felt the 5 year ban plea deal being offered was over criminalization and pulled the support for pressing charges before the trial. The prosecutors did not share that at trial and proceeded anyways. Legal experts and the House Judiciary Committee have also flagged it as an example of overcriminalization. 

Also the NPS alleges this trail has been marked closed for some 50 years, yet it hasn't overgrown in that time. Did you catch that in the transcripts?? Seems they haven't ever cared to enforce this in the past, and many people have continued to use it, so why does this guy deserve to be treated differently?

You seem to have implicit trust that the judge, prosecutors, and justice system should not be questioned, but I would argue it's been made especially clear recently that it's folly to have such blind faith in our government to treat everyone justly and equal. I want to know how we can hold these prosecutors responsible for such a waste of tax payer resources!

Where are the written rules for this mountain game?? Are you aware all but one of the previous FKT holders used that shortcut? So who exactly did he cheat -- do you somehow feel cheated as a spectator? Or are you speaking on behalf of the previous record holder, because it doesn't seem like Andy Anderson would agree, as he ceded the "official" belt buckle (made by this other runner)(Andy has avoided making, or I can't find, any official statement, but Michelino mentions it here and has the belt buckle in hand).

If you think FKT.com has the official rule book, this Jackson-based photographer/law school grad documents multiple discrepancies in their administration of the title (and provides a very in-depth breakdown of the whole situation): When Michelino attempted the FKT, the site only stated it must start and stop at the Lupine Meadows Trailhead and listed five FKTs for Grand Teton, all without flags. The site left route specifics to athletes. Additionally, four of the five FKTs previously accepted by the site also ran the old climber’s trail, one accepted as recently as 2022. Across the site it sometimes lists details for routes with specific trails, and other times it's a measure of the fastest trip from point A to point B with route nuances spread word-of-mouth amongst athletes.

The history of the Grand Teton FKT dates back to 1939, with an attempt by John Holyoke and Joe Hawkes. Subsequent record times were set in 1972, 1981, 1983 (twice), and 2012 (twice), all before the FKT site was launched in 2018, and with many route variations. It is nearly impossible for someone to take the same route twice above the meadows since it's such a maze of "trails". Supposedly Killian's FKT involved some glissading -- no one said he cheated. There is long standing tradition for the Grand FKT to be administered and awarded within the group of athletes competing for it and the rest of us, including the FKT site admins, are just spectators.

What part is aggrandizing? Is it the FKT, or publicizing the FKT, or just being a pro athlete?? It's his job to compete in running, which setting a speed record definitely falls into that category. What part of that earns him a big fine and park ban?? Seems you just don't like the guy, or don't like runners maybe?

FKT is just another way of saying speed record, which climbers (and many other humans) have been clamoring about since the dawn of competition. The first 100m dash record was set in 1891 (unofficially; 1912 by official records) and the first land speed record was set in 1898. I don't disagree that the internet and social media has taken it to another level, and quite possibly one that's not healthy for society, but that's a whole other ball of wax that is being created by corporate overlords (and maybe our government leaders??). Pro athletes are just using the tools available to reach their audience and make their sponsors happy -- they didn't create the damn thing and I don't think should be witch-hunted for their use of such evil powers.

Supposedly only 3 people on this earth have ever made it from TH to summit and back in sub 3hr. To all of them, WOW that is an incredible accomplishment!! And noteably Andy's no shortcut time is all that more impressive! But to all you who are judging Michelino pretty hard could never come close to such an athletic accomplishment -- get over your insecurities. Today I listened to a podcast with Michelino talking about his career and the FKT, among other things, and he genuinely seems like a nice enough normal guy that loves playing in the mountains, not unlike many of us on here. And he admits that he could've handled his comms following the FKT better and possibly avoided antagonizing NPS. He certainly has some ego, but top performing athlete's need to believe they're the best to be the best, so that comes with the job and he seems to manage as well as most. Maybe not someone I'd end up being best friends with, but I'd definitely rope up with him or get a beer and talk mountain stories.

It sure is. But it reminds me why I drift away from the hellscape forums of MP. So much vitriol and armchairing! And then I'm drawn into an afternoon (after climbing ~900ft + 6mi hike this morning) of actual research so we can have an informed conversation, and it'll likely be met with a snarky meme that a middle schooler could produce. Alas, back to reading books it is!!

Edit to add: the irunfar article is really well balanced. At this point I don't support Michelino's actions on trail or in the aftermath, but I also don't support how the gov is handling it (or that they have any involvement). There is an interesting comment to that article that very much makes me question supporting Michelino's legal defense (while still strongly believing it shouldn't be criminal at all): 

This whole thing stinks!!

It seems like the “climbers trail” has been in use for at least 50 plus years. It seems like over all of these seasons of snow, rain, and sun, this trail hasn’t washed out and eroded into a gully.  It seems like the sign saying something about “cutting switchbacks causes erosion” is not really accurate, at least in this situation. Many avid enjoyers of wild places, myself included, have, over many years, witnessed similar instances of nonsensical behavior by NPS and FS “rulemakers”. It’s as if since the NPS exists, they believe they need to flex authority and “do something”.  When mountain enthusiasts, myself included, witness countless examples of misguided and arbitrary rules, coupled with selective/targeted enforcement, it raises questions about exactly what is going on with these bureaucracies. This entire situation that has wasted literal days of a man’s life and threatened his freedom, and wasted probably millions of dollars (which could have been utilized by NPS for productive resource management), could have been avoided by the installation of two clearly worded signs saying closed and stating the penalties for violation and some clear indication of active restoration work, but this was just too much for the NPS to handle. Yeah, this whole thing stinks.

The Grand Teton switchback debate was/ is a well known competitive issue dating back over a decade, specifically noted in runs by Thatcher, Anderson, and Jornet. It was a key topic in Anderson's run and humble interviews, discussing differing ethics, and promoting the Grand switchback issue heavily into the broader spotlight to an extent it likely was not prior to Jornet. 

There is absolutely no way Sunseri was not aware of the issue nor the switchback in question (however "vague" the signage may or may not be), and he intentionally broke it. That shows poor competitive spirit. Should this however be legally prosecuted to the extent it is? Should an opinion of one's competitive spirit have legal implications? 

Nah. I think Sunseri's record was both poor competitive ethics and and the legal fallout overblown at the same time. 

Every one of these drivers ignored "No Parking" signs to park on both sides of the Lupine Meadows' road for a total of 1 mile of off-road, and illegal, parking. Plenty of signs were along the road. Essentially, the drivers utilized a closed area and each driver did more individual damage to the environment than Michelino Sunseri would have done running up and down the old climbers' trail 100 times.

Did any of these drivers face the threat of expensive and aggressive legal action, a $5000 fine, a ban from the park, jail time? No.

Did any receive a ticket? No.

When offered a plea bargain of a misdemeanor conviction, five-year ban from the national park and a fine, Sunseri opted to challenge the charges. Good for him.

Many interesting legal issues arose from the case against Sunseri including constitutional ones. Sunseri's photo crew faced their own legal issues and challenges to what should be a constitutionally protected activity within the park. Congress quickly addressed their issues and pushed back against the bureaucrats with new regulations to expand press freedoms within the national parks and those of ordinary Americans in regards to filming and photography within the park, even for commercial purposes.

The issue of turning fairly ordinary conduct into criminal activity — terrorizing well-meaning people in the process — has been a favorite activity of Park law enforcement and its bureaucrats, as is singling out some for prosecution while ignoring all others. This happened with Sunseri. There were better ways to address his mishap. The hearts and minds of park personnel may have had good intentions but Sunseri's prosecution was a misstep much like Sunseri's very short-lived, off-trail adventure.

The real threat to the park is industrial tourism and overcommercialization. One need only spend 15 minutes at Lupine Meadows to see that more is not better. Or 15 minutes in Jackson.

Dang good points there Wind River.

Wind Riverwrote:

Every one of these drivers ignored "No Parking" signs to park on both sides of the Lupine Meadows' road for a total of 1 mile of off-road, and illegal, parking. Plenty of signs were along the road. Essentially, the drivers utilized a closed area and each driver did more individual damage to the environment than Michelino Sunseri would have done running up and down the old climbers' trail 100 times.

Did any receive a ticket? No.

FWIW when I drove out last in August similarly parked vehicles had been ticketed. Earlier that week some 80 vehicles had also been ticketed. As such, I would venture to guess that when the picture was taken vehicles had not yet been ticketed as the NPS love notes are very obvious. Further, the NPS is pretty effective at issuing citations for such low hanging fruit.

Further, these vehicles would not be issued a simple parking ticket as the CFRs which the NPS operates under does not have a civil citation. These vehicles would be issued a citation for resource damage, off road travel or similar which is a class B misdemeanor. The same level of misdemeanor that Sunseri was issued.

Recently saw something similar with parking in Yellowstone. Parking lot was full plus a lone car was fully off in the grass behind a legally parked car - as though the drivers were together and would drive out together.

A picture taken one moment would appear they were getting away with it while in the next a ranger was there issuing a citation.

Wind Riverwrote:

Every one of these drivers...

TLDR: Some people are selfish so we all have justification to be selfish?

Allen Sandersonwrote:

FWIW when I drove out last in August similarly parked vehicles had been ticketed. Earlier that week some 80 vehicles had also been ticketed. As such, I would venture to guess that when the picture was taken vehicles had not yet been ticketed as the NPS love notes are very obvious. Further, the NPS is pretty effective at issuing citations for such low hanging fruit.

Further, these vehicles would not be issued a simple parking ticket as the CFRs which the NPS operates under does not have a civil citation. These vehicles would be issued a citation for resource damage, off road travel or similar which is a class B misdemeanor. The same level of misdemeanor that Sunseri was issued.

No tickets were issued on the day the picture was taken. Mass ticketing isn't happening at Lupine Meadows and the NPS has rarely ticketed this level of "low hanging fruit" at Lupine Meadows. And they are never going to issue penalities to drivers like the penalities Sunseri faced for "the same level" infraction. 80 vehicles did get a friendly warning stickers this summer. A very rare event. No tickets. The newspaper covered the tagging:

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/grand-teton-national-park-issues-80-warnings-for-illegal-parking-at-lupine-meadows/article_68228ddd-c518-40d4-bf21-878f2d517696.html

The park is partly responsible for the parking carnage, or lack of parking. And they celebrate the industrial tourism. When you invite millions and don't have the space, this is what happens. 

Sunseri's case gets special intervention from U.S. Attorney Darin Smith. And the Judge gets ticked off. 

"In a surprise twist, Sunseri’s attorneys reached a deal with the newly appointed U.S. attorney for Wyoming on Friday. The deal would impose a milder penalty for their client and wipe the misdemeanor charge from his record in exchange for community service and an educational class.

"In contrast to Sunseri’s May trial, in which U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephanie A. Hambrick was convivial and objective, the magistrate asked pointed questions and was sharply critical of the proposal before her, which had been approved by U.S. Attorney Darin Smith. Hambrick was clearly skeptical of Smith’s motives. In general, federal prosecutors are expected to act independently of political influence to preserve the independence of the judicial branch. In the filing that Sunseri’s defense team submitted along with Smith and his deputy, lawyers cited federal law and case law to say that when a prosecutor seeks to dismiss an indictment, a judge can deny the motion only when it is “clearly contrary to manifest public interest,” like if the prosecutor sought dismissal to attend a social event rather than attend court — or if the prosecutor in question accepted a bribe. “Unless the court finds that the prosecutor is clearly motivated by considerations other than his assessment of the public interest, it must grant the motion to dismiss,” the lawyers wrote, citing case law."

It's a win for the little guy against an overzealous federal government in my book if the judge goes along. And the Park Service wins too. The old climbers' trail saw much less traffic and was looking better than it has in years.