Hitches 101

Eric Craig wrote:

Edit: It occurred to me that some viewers might not know this picture. I didn't take it. I have not done this route. I think the picture was taken by Dave Diegelman. Pictured is Dale Bard arriving at a sling belay on the FA of Sea of Dreams. Jim Bridwell would also be present. Now I have to go check on the spelling of Dave's last name. 

Bridwell was holding court in the parking lot one day and admitted it was a staged photo with the RURPs backed up by 2 bomber (?) 1/4" bolts. 

But apparently Charlie Row didn't get the memo and on the FA of Zenyata Mondatta brought Bridwell up on a belay that consisted of the rope fixed to 2 hooks tapped behind a flake to outdo the Bard photo. :D

Am I gonna die?

I frequently use cloves on a biner to block my rappels when using tag lines

Erik J wrote:

Am I gonna die?

Near as I can tell, you’ve been dead for a while

Erik J wrote:

I frequently use cloves on a biner to block my rappels when using tag lines

So does everyone else.

Erik J wrote:

Am I gonna die?

Skip the lockers on the bolts, they are entirely unnecessary. The weighted clove alone will never unclip on accident if you set it with body weight.

Also, the locking mechanism makes sliding a clove up or down as needed to tie in your buddy a pita.

Also, belay off of a microtrax at your own risk. If slack develops in the system and you put a more severe load on the trax it may shred your rope.

That's why a grigri or similar has a smooth cam inside.

See how easy an anchor is with just the rope?

Quads are for noobs.

YGD.

John Tuttle wrote:

Also, never belay off of a microtrax. If slack develops in the system and you put a more severe load than body weight on the trax it will shred your rope.

Myth.

Hownot2 micotrax test

Although, I agree with everything else, you said.

belaying with a micro is a way of life.

I recently climbed an easy route with a party of three, and used an ATC to top belay two climbers.. horrible!! the belaying was legitimately harder than the climbing.

Yukon Cornelius wrote:

belaying with a micro is a way of life.

I recently climbed an easy route with a party of three, and used an ATC to top belay two climbers.. horrible!! the belaying was legitimately harder than the climbing.

Kids these days....

What is absolutely clear in the Petzl literature and Ryan's tests (all of them) is that it is a bad idea.

If you do not have the experience of a belayer failing to take in all the slack 100% of the time, or ropes jamming unbeknownst to the second and a significant amount of slack developing before the second falling then you just haven't been climbing long enough.

But I wish you the best of luck.

John Tuttle wrote:

Kids these days....

What is absolutely clear in the Petzl literature and Ryan's tests (all of them) is that it is a bad idea.

If you do not have the experience of a belayer failing to take in all the slack 100% of the time, or ropes jamming unbeknownst to the second and a significant amount of slack developing before the second falling then you just haven't been climbing long enough.

But I wish you the best of luck.

did we watch the same tests? he takes a huge 20 ft fall onto a micro, nearly a factor one, and it's kind of violent, and the rope is fine

Yukon Cornelius wrote:

did we watch the same tests? he takes a huge 20 ft fall onto a micro, nearly a factor one, and it's kind of violent, and the rope is fine

This particular rope has a severely damaged core, with no actual inspection of how severe the damage by further testing or even opening up the rope.

Are you trying to tell me that is sufficient evidence that the practice is safe and would be safe for your rope? Does yours even have the same sheath construction?

And you would continue leading and seconding on that rope without a single concern with an invisible damaged core? Did you review the Petzl literature? You know, the actual scientifically produced tests? Or how about the real fall factor tests where Ryan totally shreds ropes with one fall?

"Safe" my friend is when after such a fall (worst possible second fall) the rope would be completely undamaged to simple visual inspection or if you actually did further testing to failure it would withstand an agreed upon number of lead or second falls like any single rope for leading that is certified for use. Not Ryan saying "hmmm....seems pretty soft like there's real damage..." And for you that is gtg to use as a lead cord on the next pitch?

But you go right ahead and believe the rope is fine for your use. I got no skin in your game.

John Tuttle wrote:

.....What is absolutely clear in the Petzl literature and Ryan's tests (all of them) is that it is a bad idea.

They both also say in all literature and videos that climbing is dangerous, and yet, here we are.

But one other factor to consider is that Mr. Jenk's test data is not the only test data out there.  A multitude of climbers have been doing this regularly for many decades, and so far, it has not caused the bottoms of cliffs to be littered with dead bodies.

Mike Gibson wrote:

They both also say in all literature and videos that climbing is dangerous, and yet, here we are.

But one other factor to consider is that Mr. Jenk's test data is not the only test data out there.  A multitude of climbers have been doing this regularly for many decades, and so far, it has not caused the bottoms of cliffs to be littered with dead bodies.

Your first statement is a straw man. The inherent cumulative danger of climbing has nothing to do with whether a given practice is "safe" or not.

And if someone had said: "I use the microtrax for belaying a second but pay extra attention to managing slack and would immediately bail if I thought the rope got damaged cause rope shreddage is possible and we all agree that lowering the second is not really an option" I might agree that was reasonable for the risk tolerant and observant.

But there is absolutely no UIAA standard or other certification for the trax as a belay device and that is for a reason. UIAA (or w/e is appropriate) cert is the definition of "my belay device is safe and I recommend it's use" and is as far as I would spray on the interwebs without caveat. Newbies read this stuff and an Edelrid Pinch is my choice for belaying the second. It doesn't run as easy as a trax but is way safer if you have to lower them for some reason or give them slack, imo.

What Ryan's testing shows is why a Trax is not certified for belaying because it damages the rope in a severe fall and user beware YGD.

Have fun, do what floats your nuts.

Mr. Hijinks.

The Trax is perfectly fine to top belay with. It is well understood you do not trust it, despite the droves of folks belying in this manner and lets not even touch on the TRS community that "whip" on toothed devices all day every day......we are not hearing of an increase in rope damamge or accidents that I can tell.
Getting 4-ish kn is incredibly hard even with a slack belay. The slack belay will really only be of concern when closing in on the anchor and your partner can likely make eye contact and easily chat about how you're so terrible with rope management that you're leaving enough slack in the system that a fall might damage the rope.
Not only that, it sooooo much easier to not leave slack in the system, as you have 0 back feeding, and its just so damn easy to pull that slack in....buttttttttttery smooth.
I guess one could add a screamer to the equation if you really have trust issues with the trax.

All that being said, I have some partners who dont want me to belay them with a trax. Most are on board these days, but some are not. I just whip out the münter for em' then to establish dominance and to put twists in their rope.

I am about as likely to belay with a microtrax as I am to belay with an upside down jumar hanging on the anchor. Functionally the two are the same.

When I am following a pitch, if for whatever reason I need or want to move down, I will greatly appreciate some slack that allows me to comfortably do so. If I can move wherever I need/want to with coming up against the rope, that is good. Receiving the desired slack without asking for it is even better. That is the way I endeavor to belay people. It's the courteous way. It's the way to be an engaged rope mate.

If you are a person who likes a snug at all times belay, or wants a snug rope right where you are right now, it's as likely as not that you'll get it from me without asking. If you have to ask, you'll only have to ask once.

I don't care how you belay me. Just don't drop me if I come off. If you are a courteous and engaged partner, I will enjoy sharing a rope with you. Hopefully the feeling will be mutual. 

Aren't all boats docked using a cleat hitch? 

Joy Bastet wrote:

quads are for people who choose to not swap knots. quads are also for setting up tr's and learning how gear works (we aren't all newbs), though we do have to learn anchor systems that are ironically decreasing in complexity as our understanding of anchoring develops. people have all kinds of reasons for making the decisions we do

And there you have it. You simply don't understand that you don't have to swap knots.

When the second arrives at the anchor pictured, slide up the first clove on the bolt on the right and clip in the second. Do the same on the other one to the left.

Now, the second is again at the bottom of the rope and the leader is on top and can easily unclip his cloves and go once he's on belay.

Leave the Quad and the Lockers (other than for your belay device) at home.

sliding cloves is annoying and clunky, and also difficult if it's cold (but sometimes necessary if you have juuuuuust enough rope). i personally prefer loose overhands. climber B just copies the rope anchor on their end of the rope and uses the existing biners that climber A put up. if B is the next leader, they just clip their overhands into the biners on top of A's overhands and then take them off when they're ready to climb. if the team is block leading, then B clips their overhand loops inside of A's loops and A is now magically on top again, ready to climb. it's the best and fastest system if it's the classic two people pitching out a multipitch, regardless of what anyone says lol.

John Tuttle wrote:

And if someone had said: "I use the microtrax for belaying a second but pay extra attention to managing slack and would immediately bail if I thought the rope got damaged cause rope shreddage is possible and we all agree that lowering the second is not really an option" I might agree that was reasonable for the risk tolerant and observant.

when I'm belaying, I usually leave huuuuge loops of slack out. no gear, no falls! and if I think the rope might be shredded, that's extra incentive not to fall on the next lead. get with the program.

lol clown.