Man falls to his death while rappelling in Zion National Park

Bill Lawrywrote:

Not me really. Still, I once talked my wife into letting me control her ATC rappel with a fireman’s belay.

We started with me fully braked and she let go. No problem.

As I relaxed the brake-strand tension, I recall surprise at how much I was having to go without any descent on her part.

Then she literally started to free fall. which of course alarmed us both.

This was more than a decade ago.  She went 5 or 10 feet before I reacted enough to stop her.

I’ve never been enthusiastic about the reliability  of a fireman’s belay. I have similar doubts about a third hand though the Sterling HollowBlock impresses me - though not meaning to derail from the question.

I'm happy to hear you refer to your wife in the present tense! 

At least you can't burn your hand with an out of control fireman belay right? 

How far does a rapeller fall in approximately 2 seconds? And because I’m not well skilled in math/physics: how far does a body fall in 1.5 and 2.5 seconds.

@Old5ten:  Thank-you. And Thanks to: A Rice & M Pilate.

Bb Ccwrote:

How far does a rapeller fall in approximately 2 seconds? And because I’m not well skilled in math/physics: how far does a body fall in 1.5 and 2.5 seconds. 

in pure physics terms (vacuum, free fall) let's say 65' - but ultimately it depends how much friction there is in the system (air drag, rope/device drag).

Cocoapuffs 1000wrote:

Does anyone have a first hand anecdote of using a fireman's belay to stop an out of control rappel?  In an actual emergency, not as an exercise.

As I stated somewhere up above, I think an important reminder from this accident is that a fireman's belay is really a way to substitute a more experienced person (the 'fireman') controlling the belay for an inexperienced person above. In case, just for example, the person rappelling loses control of their brake hand, drops the brake strand, etc. In that instance a bottom belay can help regain control. But it's not going to fix a defective rappel that doesn't have enough friction from the beginning or where something failed in the rappel device mid rappel, causing it to lose friction.  

Bb Ccwrote:

How far does a rapeller fall in approximately 2 seconds? And because I’m not well skilled in math/physics: how far does a body fall in 1.5 and 2.5 seconds….

Here’s a quick table that answers your intermediate time/distance questions 

As you can see (again like old5ten stated: neglecting residual friction still in the system) in the case at hand with the rappeller ~200 ft up, he would be hitting the ground in about 3.5 secs. So a 2 sec delay in the bridge test for someone to fall 65’ before attempting to arrest is a little over the top as far as real conditions go in my opinion.

-Agree with Andrew in that a belay will not overcome a faulty system, but that said, a bottom belay can (it’s possible) take over and manage an otherwise insufficient system from the standpoint of a rappeller alone.   Insert Lots of caveats here —not the least of which is how the rappeller/device/belayer interact and when

Odds of success drop drastically with a stack up of adverse conditions 

Mark Pilatewrote:

Here’s a quick table that answers your intermediate time/distance questions 

As you can see (again like old5ten stated: neglecting residual friction still in the system) in the case at hand with the rappeller ~200 ft up, he would be hitting the ground in about 3.5 secs. So a 2 sec delay in the bridge test for someone to fall 65’ before attempting to arrest is a little over the top as far as real conditions go in my opinion.

Freefall through air is very different from losing control of a rappel. I'm sure the accelleration is much more gradual because the rappel device and the person trying to brake are still going to create significant friction, even if not enough to stop or slow down enough. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

Freefall through air is very different from losing control of a rappel. I'm sure the accelleration is much more gradual because the rappel device and the person trying to brake are still going to create significant friction, even if not enough to stop or slow down enough. 

I agree, and that’s my earlier point about the bridge test “ time 0 “ starting conditions,  but  after free fall has begun, you’d be surprised how negligible it is after say the first 1/2 second.   If unrestricted says 3.5 secs, I estimate the rappel free fall not to be over 4 secs

Andrew Ricewrote:

As I stated somewhere up above, I think an important reminder from this accident is that a fireman's belay is really a way to substitute a more experienced person (the 'fireman') controlling the belay for an inexperienced person above. In case, just for example, the person rappelling loses control of their brake hand, drops the brake strand, etc. In that instance a bottom belay can help regain control. But it's not going to fix a defective rappel that doesn't have enough friction from the beginning or where something failed in the rappel device mid rappel, causing it to lose friction.  

I used poor wording in my question.  When I said 'out of control' rap, I was including your first situation - the rappel setup is NOT defective but the person rappelling looses brake hand control.  Which I assume is the most common mechanism for climbing related rappel accidents (except for rapping off the end of the rope, obviously)

Andrew Ricewrote:

Freefall through air is very different from losing control of a rappel. I'm sure the accelleration is much more gradual because the rappel device and the person trying to brake are still going to create significant friction, even if not enough to stop or slow down enough. 

Remind me what sort of device the bridge test was using? Was it a normal ATC style tube device? These canyoneering devices like the one used in this accident seem to have very different functional modes and, also, failure modes. 

Bill Lawrywrote:

I’m still curious what was meant by “strange oscillations” of the rope at the belayer.

My first thought when I read that was rope movements caused by the climber trying (perhaps frantically and forcefully) to get some wraps on his leg(s).

M Mwrote:

I'm happy to hear you refer to your wife in the present tense!

Absolutely!  I felt pretty sheepish that she went so far under those conditions. Only mitigation I can think of for starting to lower someone that way on an ATC would be to cycle quickly between more and less tension on a decreasing trend. . Don’t even want to try it.

At least you can't burn your hand with an out of control fireman belay right? 

I really wonder about that.  The belayer in this accident received “severe rope burn/bruising”. Conditions were certainly more extreme than mine. Still, at a minimum, physical reactions out of alarm can be severe.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Absolutely!  I felt pretty sheepish that she went so far under those conditions. Only mitigation I can think of for starting to lower someone that way on an ATC would be to cycle quickly between more and less tension on a decreasing trend. . Don’t even want to try it.

I really wonder about that.  The belayer in this accident received “severe rope burn/bruising”. Conditions were certainly more extreme than mine. Still, at a minimum, physical reactions out of alarm can be severe.

it's pretty amazing your wife went for that experiment - kudos to her.  not sure what the safeguards were, but i'd definitely recommend a third person with a TR belay and a hard stop way off the deck in any experiment like that ;-)

rope burn/bruising brings up another tangent, the use of gloves.  maybe that should be more common with certain types of rappels/belays?!

Yep - that’s the way to do it. Folks should try it under controlled circumstances as a learning experience. 

Good rope-handling gloves are under utilized IMO.

Photos of some techniques not shown in the Kong user instructions...

Rigging depends on whether the user is directly plunging into deep water (or not), and also experience level.

Hydrobot could benefit from a more aggressive horn (like the 'Scarab', which is my personal favourite device for canyoning).

Mark Gommerswrote:

Photos of some techniques not shown in the Kong user instructions...

Rigging depends on whether the user is directly plunging into deep water (or not), and also experience level.

Hydrobot could benefit from a more aggressive horn (like the 'Scarab', which is my personal favourite device for canyoning).

How does the Scarab attach to the harness? Agree that "horn" on the Hydrobot appears dangerously small. 

let's be mindful of the fact that someone died.  i like the exchange of ideas, the scenarios, the research, the hypotheticals, and the learning process, but maybe the blame game should be a new/different thread...

@ Cody L -- The tone of your post has no place in a thread where somebody died.  In addition, your post is illogical -- read it again carefully -- you contradicted yourself.  

You should delete your post.

Andrew Ricewrote:

How does the Scarab attach to the harness? Agree that "horn" on the Hydrobot appears dangerously small. 

Bb Ccwrote:

Thanks!

General question, why do canyoneers have these super fancy rappel device? I've never gone canyoneering, but I've done a few long raps while climbing, and I've never thought "The ATC or gri-gri isn't good enough" 

Is this much variable friction really needed?

Is it a weight savings thing?

whats the history here?